Esc a19

taliz

My mother in law has been informed of two tax under payments. One in 07/08 and one in 10/11.
I have had a look over her P60's and the HMRC calcs are right but becuase niether of these were of her doing I am going to try the A19 route.
I've done some research into what the A19 letter should contain, can anyone offer any opinions on whether this will suffice.

[FONT=&quot]I have received your tax calculation for 2007/08 and 2010/11 showing I have underpaid tax. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Write off the tax owed for 2007/08 under Extra-statutory Concession A19, as you have delayed in using information in your possession to calculate, and tell me about, the underpayment. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Not being an expert in tax matters, I had no reason to suspect that I might not be paying enough tax. I had thought that all tax due was deducted under PAYE.
  You state in your letter dated 17/11/2011 that I “had two employers at the same time and both employers were applying a PAYE coding giving me the full free tax allowance”. This is incorrect, I only had one employer applying a PAYE tax coding that year. It is simply a case that ********** Parish Council’s payroll department was shut down by ******** County Council, who then took on the administration of all **********’s staff wages for the remainder of the year and onward. This was a process that was administered from within the council’s payroll department and I had no part of. It has now been made clear to me that any error that happened in the 2007/08 year was the fault of my employer when administering this transfer.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I understand that when considering my application for ESC A19 you should first consider whether there has been any fault on the part of my employer; and therefore whether you should instead recover the underpayment from them.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]Write off the tax owed for 2010/11 under ESC A19 because the reason for the underpayment is that my state pension has not been taxed correctly. There were known errors made by HMRC for that year. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Please also treat this letter as a COMPLAINT as you have managed my affairs poorly. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As a PAYE taxpayer, I understand the law only requires me to keep records for the 2007/08 tax year until 31 January 2010, so I am at a disadvantage in checking the calculation. ‘Your Charter’ says you want to give me certainty that I am paying the right amount. Sending a calculation of tax owed nearly three years after the end of the relevant year (a period in which financial circumstances could have altered dramatically) does not meet that objective and gives further grounds for writing off the tax. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If you do not agree to write off the tax, please provide me with the following (if necessary, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]treating this as a request for the information I am entitled to under Section 7 (1) of the Data Protection Act 1998 for all years of relevance to the underpayment)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]:

[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]a full breakdown of the figures used in the calculation; [/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]an explanation of where the figures have come from and any estimates used;[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]a detailed explanation of how the tax underpayment occurred; and[/FONT]
· [FONT=&quot]full reasons why you believe I must repay the tax.
[/FONT]

BoGoF

"As a PAYE taxpayer, I understand the law only requires me to keep records for the 2007/08 tax year until 31 January 2010" - that part needs removed as it's factually incorrect.

If it's employer error for 07/08 then HMRC's first port of call should be the employer and try and recover the tax from them.

For 10/11 when did the state pension start? If it was during 10/11 then ESCA19 won't apply.

In all honesty I would say your letter is rather OTT for an opening letter but maybe that's just me.

Mikeyorks

ESC A19 doesn't apply for either year.

07-08 ..... if you're aware (as you say in the letter) that the employer made an error then that is what you ask to be looked at. Alleging 'employer error' and citing ESC A19 is a contradiction in terms :

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/thelibrary/tax-paye/employer-errors-deduction-paye.pdf

10-11 HMRC have until at least April 2012 before ESC A19 applies to that year (their bold) :

The time limit which applies for ESC A19 is where HMRC have failed to use information received about a source of income, within 12 months after the end of the tax year in which the information is received.

chrismac1

I'd say you are spot on in your analysis of what probably happened in 2007-08. HMRC should have had a system which added up the employer returns by your NI number and then got in touch with employers and / or taxpayer to resolve the matter during 08/09. Instead they were using abacuses, but beware they will nonetheless potentially attempt to point the finger either at the taxpayer or the employer. See earlier threads on this site - many of which I have posted in - often it takes 5 or 6 goes before they cave in.

For me, though, HMRC have got no chance on 07-08. Be prepared for 5 or 6 HMRC stooges to some into this thread telling you how useless I am. If that happens, all I suggest is that you look into the history of my posts, add up the winners who have beaten HMRC partly with my help and subtract the losers who have not. It' s a postive number and a high % record.

For 10-11 you have to bite the bullet. Yes I agree that in the 21st Century it should only take a few weeks - 2 months max. - to have written to you. But they get 2 years, it's a joke but there it is.

I like your wording as no-one who reads it can seriously think you'll roll over and die. See my earlier postings, you might need 3 or 4 letters before someone in fact does read it, you might just get the standard "Esc A19 batting back blow-out" letter.

You'll find by looking at my other posts that I am often pretty aggressive when dealing with HMRC. This makes sense mostly, these situations are basic win-lose except where you are dealing with a local inspector on the spot where they are potentially win-win. In other words, if someoone on the other end of your letter gets really wound up it is of no matter, whereas with the local guys you need to be friendlier as a practising accountant as inevitably you'll be seeing them again.

Having said that, I like to keep my Complaint weapon in my back pocket at least until they have ignored three letters, or responded three times in a way that suggests they have not bothered to read the letters properly. So given I am seen as aggressive and take at least 3 goes to Complain, I'd suggest going in on letter 1 with a Complaint is ultra-aggressive.

On 2007-08, be Novak Djokovic. Keep going and never give up until they admit they are busted.

Mikeyorks

chrismac1 wrote: »

For me, though, HMRC have got no chance on 07-08. Be prepared for 5 or 6 HMRC stooges to some into this thread telling you how useless I am. If that happens, all I suggest is that you look into the history of my posts, add up the winners who have beaten HMRC partly with my help and subtract the losers who have not. It' s a postive number and a high % record.

.

Is this drink or just fantasy. You have no track record on ESC A19 on this forum. Other than a number of posts going back a long time and demonstrating your lack of grasp of the basics. Allied to much, and increasing, bluster.

As I've said before your most helpful comments have been 'post up the detail'. But I notice you never contribute thereafter. Curious.

BoGoF

I swear that man has an alert system that flags up when ESC A19 is mentioned on this forum.

Thankfully I am spared most of his tripe apart from when he is quoted.

What is an HMRC stooge btw.............if it's somebody that was disgusted at your feable attempt at humour when mocking someone who recently died of cancer then I guess I must be one of them stooges.

chrismac1

To the OP. You will find a number of posts on this site which can be summed up thus:

"Give up, you owe the money, HMRC has done nothing wrong."

That is not the norm on other sites which deal with this topic or indeed which deal with HMRC in general. Indeed there is another site called www.hmrcisshiite" - one extra letter added - which is line for an award or two at present. You won't find many posts from stooges telling you to give up on those sites.

The strict wording of Esc A19 it is true is not helpful. In practice that does not stop the taxpayer winning, so is of no real account. Just add up the win-loss ratio against HMRC on this site before you throw your hand in, not that you are going to throw in anyway.

Pennywise

To the OP, I think your letter is spot on. Please ignore the HMRC groupies. You may like to look at the following thread which has links to yet another thread, both of which contain the advice to keep writing until you get a sensible response from HMRC, and both contain success stories where posters have won against HMRC despite being told not to bother trying by the HMRC groupies.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3052300

BoGoF

Pennywise wrote: »

To the OP, I think your letter is spot on. Please ignore the HMRC groupies. You may like to look at the following thread which has links to yet another thread, both of which contain the advice to keep writing until you get a sensible response from HMRC, and both contain success stories where posters have won against HMRC despite being told not to bother trying by the HMRC groupies.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/3052300

So you believe the OP has a case for 10-11?

taliz

According to direct gov's website HMRC suggests you keep your records for at least 22 months from the end of the tax year they relate to. The tax year runs from 6 April to the following 5 April, so keep paperwork until at least 31 January nearly two years later.

I will amend the statement that says "the law requires" to HMRC Recommend.

I've written it so may as well post it and see what comes back. If as you say it doesn't apply regarding 07/08, it should prompt them into contacting the previous employer (you would think).

It really anoys me that they wait all this time until someones sole income is the meagre state pension then BANG they want £3k, they have had her in tears onthe phone twice and now she practically has a panick attack when a HMRC letter comes..

It's a disgrace when the government treat honest law abiding citizens so aggressively when it's is down to their own incompetance that these things go by un-noticed.

Thanks for all the responces from both sides of the fence.

BoGoF

It may say HMRC recommend individuals keep records for this long but legally HMRC and individuals can go back 4 years (used to be 6) so in honesty that point is not worth including.

One way or another your mil shouldn't end up liable for the 07/08 underpayment - it's likely the employer will have to cough up.

10/11 doesn't qualify for ESCA19 I'm afraid.