The Great 'Get Paid To Generate Energy' Hunt

Cardew

noncom wrote: »

I've had several quotes for a (almost) 4KW system, although actually due to the output of panels we're buying, the real o/p will be 3.7 or 3.76kW. They've all come in just over the £15k mark (£15.2k for the installer I'm going with, including a 5-yr insurance backed warranty). So 14k sounds cheap, but not extraordinarily so.

Cardew, yes, in pure money saving terms it is possible (in some areas of the country?) to achieve 7p per kWh Tier 2 price, but again I would state that some people don't buy their electricity on price alone. For some of us, the actual fuel mix is important (Green tariffs of various descriptions) and we are prepared to pay a premium for that standpoint. Therefore, although you may argue that I am throwing money away, my Tier 2 price will be higher than you quote whether or not I install panels, and so the calculation of how much I save from getting free electricity is higher.

I don't disagree with the points you make above for your situation; indeed some people installed Solar PV before the introduction of FITs mainly because of the environmental advantages.

However surely the purpose of this thread is to discuss the pros and cons of PV installation in general terms and not an individual's personal motives. Importantly on a money saving website, we should discuss the financial implications.

The 10 to 12 year 'break even' scenario is based on the assumption(amongst others) that people have the capital to invest sitting in a bank account and would be getting a 3.6% net return on that capital.

Some, like yourself, intend to add it to their mortgage or borrow from other sources. It greatly increases the time to break-even if people have to borrow and pay interest at 5% or 6%(or more) and save the income at 3.6%.

At about £10k for a 4kWp system I might be persuaded;)

noncom_2

Yes and no.

I might have considered installing Solar PV before, although I didn't know a lot about it until recently. My interest was awakened actually before I knew anything about FITs, simply by the fact that in January my family bought a house with a big South facing roof, moving from a small semi- facing East/West, which would be a non-starter.

The introduction of FITs has therefore come, co-incidentally, at a very good time for me, and greatly helped sway my decision towards installing. I will never be able to know the answer now as to whether I would have gone ahead without FITs or decided I couldn't afford it.

I don't see how one can discuss the pros and cons of installing a technology like Solar PV without discussing the various motives which would sway people for or against. One is ethical, one is financial, there may be others. I have been more than happy as you know to contibute what I can to the financial debate, but if you keep repeating that the savings are smaller than people say because electricity only costs 7p per unit, then I think that is an assumption which merits challenge. I don't think I'm the only one reading this thread who would knowingly pay more per unit for a "genuinely green" tariff, so for those people your figure doesn't give an accurate reflection of their possible savings.

I disagree with your opinion that the break-even point of solar is 10-12 years only if the purchaser has no mortgage and 15k sitting in a cash savings account at 3.5%! My calculations show a worst-case of about 21 years, and a best-case of about 7 years period for the Solar Panels to overtake the other option of paying a similar amount off a mortgage at 6%. I know that sounds like a ludicrous spread, but some of the factors are huge (such as, do you assume that the panels have zero capital value from day one, or do you assume that they would raise the value of your house by a certain amount if you had to sell early?).

Also, if you assume that a purchaser is borrowing money at 5 or 6% in order to buy the panels, why should you assume that they can only invest the income at 3%? For my own case, with a flexible mortgage, the income will be "invested" at exactly the same rate as the "borrowing" - the cost of my panels effectively increases my mortgage, the income decreases it.

Again, I don't think I'm saying anything so unusual that you could categorise these as "personal motives". And I'm trying to enlighten the whole argument (and I appreciate your constant interaction in giving another side of the story), not make a watertight case.

Cardew

Agreed there are the 'ethical' and financial aspects to be considered; which is why I quoted those who fitted solar before the introduction of FITs - in strictly financial terms they would probably never break-even.

I am simply trying to look at the financial aspects - and likewise I am not attempting to make a watertight case. Armed with some reasonable, financial points to consider, people can decide if, and how, those points will apply to their personal situation.

For instance a 50% tax payer has a lot more to gain in getting a tax free income. Those in the far SW of England will get far more income than those in the North of Scotland.

The term 'personal motives' wasn't meant as any form of criticism(so I hope you are not offended). To illustrate, you cost electricity used at, say, 13p/kWh. That is perfectly valid in your calculations if you are prepared to pay that rate for ethical reasons. However in the wider financial debate, 7p/kWh is I suggest more representative?

Similarly, many additions to a mortgage come with higher rates, sometimes an arrangement fee, and restrictions on paying off the capital; yours doesn't.

John_Pierpoint

It is amazing the stuff you find when you go looking.

Here is the power station:
http://www.industcards.com/wind-scotland.htm

Here are the great and the good (who almost certainly don't live there)
giving a award to those who do (Would it be fair to say things like "Beards & Sandals" or "White settlers"?)

http://islandsgoinggreen.org/

Please can we have something like the "Audit Commission" to count every penny that has been put into the project, exactly what it bought, and let us know how much per person this is?

Meanwhile

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/highlands_and_islands/10445344.stm


We cannot have toast for breakfast today because the sun is unlikely to shine until this afternoon?

zeupater

Hi All

Just seen the 'E' word used again (ethical) .... for once in the correct context, but even so ......

In my opinion the 'E' word is really heavily overused when relating to solar pv and other green technologies, and this is largely being pushed by the 'ethically sound' cartel of installers.

Of course the MCS cartel is 'ethical', they're installing an 'ethical' product in order to lower carbon output and save the world for us all .... what a great sales pitch, make the punter feel guilty, bamboozle the average joe with science and sometimes dubious calculations and attain grossly overinflated margins for doing so .... how ethical is that ?

If anyone was to really find an 'ethical' installer who was in business to actually help the planet and operated on a scale which allowed access to direct bulk purchasing of the materials you'd find that the installed UK prices would be much closer to Cardew's £10k/4kWp system target, in fact, if the analysis of European pv panel costs is anywhere near correct, if utilising Chinese panels and operating to an 'ethical' profit margin (yes I do understand overhead recovery and the difference between profit & contribution ) there is no reason why quotations should not be starting to flood through our letterboxes for 'ethical' £10k/4kWp systems from 'ethical' suppliers even now.

You might have guessed by the 'tone' of this post that I've actually had some quotations which have been quite heavily inflated, my position .... :rotfl:and wait a while, however, if there are really any 'ethical' MCS installers out there who would like a straightforward 4kWp installation not far 'East of the Welsh', feel free to PM me ... I've got a nice roof, in a nice area which is visible to lots of nice people from the nice area as they pass, and not a single array for miles for any of them to see ..... think of the opportunity ....

Z

John_Pierpoint

Ditto - I'm in Essex and (when the trees drop their leaves, it would be visible to 50K motorists per day):D.

I think the time is coming to compare quotations and name names.

noncom_2

Cardew wrote: »

Agreed there are the 'ethical' and financial aspects to be considered; which is why I quoted those who fitted solar before the introduction of FITs - in strictly financial terms they would probably never break-even.

I am simply trying to look at the financial aspects - and likewise I am not attempting to make a watertight case. Armed with some reasonable, financial points to consider, people can decide if, and how, those points will apply to their personal situation.

For instance a 50% tax payer has a lot more to gain in getting a tax free income. Those in the far SW of England will get far more income than those in the North of Scotland.

The term 'personal motives' wasn't meant as any form of criticism(so I hope you are not offended). To illustrate, you cost electricity used at, say, 13p/kWh. That is perfectly valid in your calculations if you are prepared to pay that rate for ethical reasons. However in the wider financial debate, 7p/kWh is I suggest more representative?

Similarly, many additions to a mortgage come with higher rates, sometimes an arrangement fee, and restrictions on paying off the capital; yours doesn't.

Agree largely with the above, and no, I am not offended! Whether or not 7p/kWh is more broadly representative or not, I don't know.... clearly it is possible to get Tier 2 electricity at 7p/unit, and it may well be that people who frequent this site are more likely than average to be doing so, but the fact remains that most consumers are not on the cheapest available tariffs at any given time, for whatever reason.

ChrisJD

noncom wrote: »

I've had several quotes for a (almost) 4KW system, although actually due to the output of panels we're buying, the real o/p will be 3.7 or 3.76kW. They've all come in just over the £15k mark (£15.2k for the installer I'm going with, including a 5-yr insurance backed warranty). So 14k sounds cheap, but not extraordinarily so.

I have had lots of quotes, with a range from £6.18 down to £3.55 per Wp installed. Clearly it all depends upon the size and reputation of the installer and panel manufacturer, the (very) small print of their performance guarantee, which you will find to be far less generous than it first seems, and how likely you think it is that they would still be trading if you came to claim against them in 20 years. I have read a degree of scorn being cast on Chinese panels, but I understand that even some of the bigger names are actually having theirs made there.

A worry I have with some otherwise attractive small installers is that they won't accept credit card payment, which makes the 25% deposit they ask for rather less attractive - if they fail, I have little chance of recovery.

Overall, I am still quite keen to have a system installed, but I find it very hard to decide how much more I should pay for a name.

poohbear59

We are bust looking at costings for ground source heat pumps and just wondered if anyone here has had one installed? Is payback going to work in the same way as pv etc?

ETA Our roof faces the wrong way for solar energy and we live in a conservation area which prevents us using solar panels that are visible from the road.

Although we live at 1200 feet above sea level we don't have a high enough wind speed for turbines. Too much buffering.

Cardew

poohbear59 wrote: »

We are bust looking at costings for ground source heat pumps and just wondered if anyone here has had one installed? Is payback going to work in the same way as pv etc?

Heat pumps are to be covered by the Renewable Heat Incentive(RHI) which is due to come into force next year.

Although proposals were published, with the change of Government, an announcement on the future of the scheme should be made this Autumn.

However any scheme is unlikely to be as generous as the subsidies for Solar PV - but anyone contemplating a heat pump would be advised to await the announcement of details.