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  • FIRST POST
    • tawecdl
    • By tawecdl 15th Jun 17, 2:45 PM
    • 1,033Posts
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    tawecdl
    Different Pay Grade - Same job Title.
    • #1
    • 15th Jun 17, 2:45 PM
    Different Pay Grade - Same job Title. 15th Jun 17 at 2:45 PM
    Hey Everybody.

    Just out of interest, if somebody was to start employment with a company and was given for example £20,000 per year contract for a job where there are only 2 positions within the company (one of which is already filled), and then a month or so into their employment discovers that their colleague doing exactly the same job is on for example £30,000 plus £4,200 vehicle allowance. Is there anything the employee can do?

    Literally exactly the same job roles and responsibilities...

    Thanks in advance

Page 1
    • Takeaway_Addict
    • By Takeaway_Addict 15th Jun 17, 2:47 PM
    • 5,668 Posts
    • 6,465 Thanks
    Takeaway_Addict
    • #2
    • 15th Jun 17, 2:47 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Jun 17, 2:47 PM
    Hey Everybody.

    Just out of interest, if somebody was to start employment with a company and was given for example £20,000 per year contract for a job where there are only 2 positions within the company (one of which is already filled), and then a month or so into their employment discovers that their colleague doing exactly the same job is on for example £30,000 plus £4,200 vehicle allowance. Is there anything the employee can do?

    Literally exactly the same job roles and responsibilities...

    Thanks in advance

    Originally posted by tawecdl
    Only if the reason for this was down to a discriminatory nature based on sex, gender race etc.

    Though as you've not even hinted at this for the reason then I'd say no.

    Move on if you don't like it.
    Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked
    • London50
    • By London50 15th Jun 17, 4:23 PM
    • 1,532 Posts
    • 1,446 Thanks
    London50
    • #3
    • 15th Jun 17, 4:23 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Jun 17, 4:23 PM
    AS above

    The other person must have had far better negotiating skills when being interviewed for the other position than you so a lesson learned for future job applications.
    • itchyfeet123
    • By itchyfeet123 15th Jun 17, 5:00 PM
    • 399 Posts
    • 462 Thanks
    itchyfeet123
    • #4
    • 15th Jun 17, 5:00 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Jun 17, 5:00 PM
    The other person must have had far better negotiating skills when being interviewed for the other position than you so a lesson learned for future job applications.
    Originally posted by London50
    This. Especially if you're a woman, when you're offered a job that isn't an hourly-paid supermarket job, you should *always* negotiate.

    There's not much you can do now. Read your company's policies on promotion and pay rises. After a 2-3 good performance reviews, you'll be in a decent position to apply for a pay rise, based primarily on how awesome you are at your job, but also taking into account the salary of your team mate.

    But, one thing to keep in mind when comparing your salary with your colleague's is that it's not just about the job. If s/he has been in the role a few years, s/he might have started on a similar salary to you but have gotten annual increments.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 15th Jun 17, 5:30 PM
    • 3,175 Posts
    • 2,893 Thanks
    Undervalued
    • #5
    • 15th Jun 17, 5:30 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Jun 17, 5:30 PM
    AS above

    The other person must have had far better negotiating skills when being interviewed for the other position than you so a lesson learned for future job applications.
    Originally posted by London50
    Indeed.

    Or they may have been recruited when there was a shortage of people with the right skills so the firm had to pay over the odds.

    A year or two on, perhaps if a competitor has closed down, there may be several skilled people desperate for a job and the firm can pick and choose and get away with paying far less.

    Perfectly lawful unless it is due to the legally protected grounds mentioned in other posts.
    • xapprenticex
    • By xapprenticex 15th Jun 17, 6:43 PM
    • 1,307 Posts
    • 1,216 Thanks
    xapprenticex
    • #6
    • 15th Jun 17, 6:43 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Jun 17, 6:43 PM
    Its not illegal or anything basically.
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 15th Jun 17, 7:40 PM
    • 4,946 Posts
    • 6,172 Thanks
    theoretica
    • #7
    • 15th Jun 17, 7:40 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Jun 17, 7:40 PM
    AS above

    The other person must have had far better negotiating skills when being interviewed for the other position than you so a lesson learned for future job applications.
    Originally posted by London50
    This. Especially if you're a woman, when you're offered a job that isn't an hourly-paid supermarket job, you should *always* negotiate.
    Originally posted by itchyfeet123
    There is evidence that men have a stronger track record at negotiating salaries, and so an argument that setting salaries by negotiation is likely to disadvantage women and so can be discriminatory. Unless of course it is a role for a negotiator, when how well the candidate negotiates for the salary and how well they do in the job may be linked.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • London50
    • By London50 15th Jun 17, 7:58 PM
    • 1,532 Posts
    • 1,446 Thanks
    London50
    • #8
    • 15th Jun 17, 7:58 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Jun 17, 7:58 PM
    There is evidence that men have a stronger track record at negotiating salaries, and so an argument that setting salaries by negotiation is likely to disadvantage women and so can be discriminatory. Unless of course it is a role for a negotiator, when how well the candidate negotiates for the salary and how well they do in the job may be linked.
    Originally posted by theoretica

    If anyone applies for a job {male or female} then it is up to them to do their homework before any interviews.They should find out the "going rate" for a job based on the experience they have, that way they know before they start what they think should be the lowest wage/perks is wanted.
    If you go in "semi blind" any company will go for the lowest figure/perks they can and you then end up with the situation the OP has.
    When I worked I did my homework and if the offer was not to my liking I walked away and found one that did. I am sorry but it is no good taking a job then finding out later that the people doing the same as you are "xyz" better off because they fought their corner at the right time.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 15th Jun 17, 8:15 PM
    • 4,242 Posts
    • 4,409 Thanks
    TELLIT01
    • #9
    • 15th Jun 17, 8:15 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Jun 17, 8:15 PM
    My immediate thought was that the other person may have much more experience in the role, or may even have taken a step down from a role which disappeared but the company was keen to keep them so allowed them to retain the previous salary.
    The second is exactly what happened to me when there was a merger and restructure of jobs. My old role disappeared and I moved to a job which had less management responsibility, but I retained my salary and company car. I was actually also earning about £10k more than others doing the same job. It just meant that I would have to mark time on pay rises until the new salary band caught up with my actual salary. In the end it didn't really matter because following the financial crisis I took VR and a fat redundancy payout - also based on my 'inflated' salary.
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 15th Jun 17, 8:31 PM
    • 4,946 Posts
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    theoretica
    I am sorry but it is no good taking a job then finding out later that the people doing the same as you are "xyz" better off because they fought their corner at the right time.
    Originally posted by London50
    On an individual level I agree with you that that is the sensible action. However on a bigger level, when a company has a gender pay gap "some employees didn't fight their corner" is not a acceptable reason. The legislation is equal pay for equal work, not equal pay for equal work and equal negotiating skills.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • London50
    • By London50 15th Jun 17, 8:56 PM
    • 1,532 Posts
    • 1,446 Thanks
    London50
    On an individual level I agree with you that that is the sensible action. However on a bigger level, when a company has a gender pay gap "some employees didn't fight their corner" is not a acceptable reason. The legislation is equal pay for equal work, not equal pay for equal work and equal negotiating skills.
    Originally posted by theoretica
    Could not agree more the equal pay act came in donkeys years ago and still men are paid more than women in most fields and no one seems prepared or able to pass a law making it right for equal pay for equal jobs.
    I was driving for a company that supplied Fords during the 1968 strike and supported those women 100% and refused to cross the picket line, yet today there are so many cases as the OP has.
    I think one of the other problems is that people {understandably} vent their rage on these sites but as a collective are to scared to "rock the boat" as they could loose their job and until the workforce as a whole stands up for rights nothing will change.
    OK I was lucky being born when I was as {after a few years} jobs for life was the order of the day, it was your choice, you walked away from one job at tea break and had a new job by teatime {or at a push the following morning} and I know that is not the case now, for that alone I do feel so sorry for todays workforce.
    We can only hope that someone somewhere starts a drive that people can get behind and sort this long overdue mess out.
    • Takeaway_Addict
    • By Takeaway_Addict 15th Jun 17, 10:41 PM
    • 5,668 Posts
    • 6,465 Thanks
    Takeaway_Addict
    Could not agree more the equal pay act came in donkeys years ago and still men are paid more than women in most fields and no one seems prepared or able to pass a law making it right for equal pay for equal jobs.
    I was driving for a company that supplied Fords during the 1968 strike and supported those women 100% and refused to cross the picket line, yet today there are so many cases as the OP has.
    I think one of the other problems is that people {understandably} vent their rage on these sites but as a collective are to scared to "rock the boat" as they could loose their job and until the workforce as a whole stands up for rights nothing will change.
    OK I was lucky being born when I was as {after a few years} jobs for life was the order of the day, it was your choice, you walked away from one job at tea break and had a new job by teatime {or at a push the following morning} and I know that is not the case now, for that alone I do feel so sorry for todays workforce.
    We can only hope that someone somewhere starts a drive that people can get behind and sort this long overdue mess out.
    Originally posted by London50
    Actually this isn't true and I believe up to the age of about 41 on average the woman is paid more.

    There is a difference between the pay rates for men and women and the gender pay gap which people don't seem to understand.
    Don't trust a forum for advice. Get proper paid advice. Any advice given should always be checked
    • London50
    • By London50 15th Jun 17, 11:33 PM
    • 1,532 Posts
    • 1,446 Thanks
    London50
    Actually this isn't true and I believe up to the age of about 41 on average the woman is paid more.

    There is a difference between the pay rates for men and women and the gender pay gap which people don't seem to understand.
    Originally posted by Takeaway_Addict
    I bow then to your better knowledge but IMO there should not be any difference between men and woman if they are doing the same job. There is no reason why a man should get a better pay rate if the work is the same.
    When I drove HGV's there were a number of female drivers that could {and did} out do their male counterparts with driving skills and getting the loads delivered on time yet they were paid less.
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 15th Jun 17, 11:41 PM
    • 4,946 Posts
    • 6,172 Thanks
    theoretica
    Actually this isn't true and I believe up to the age of about 41 on average the woman is paid more.
    Originally posted by Takeaway_Addict
    I suspect you might be thinking of the data for part time workers only - the data I have seen had women paid less than men at all ages for full time work.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/bulletins/annualsurveyofhoursandearnings/2016provisionalresults#earnings-by-age-group
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • keepcalmandstayoutofdebt
    • By keepcalmandstayoutofdebt 15th Jun 17, 11:59 PM
    • 2,933 Posts
    • 1,523 Thanks
    keepcalmandstayoutofdebt
    it was your choice, you walked away from one job at tea break and had a new job by teatime {or at a push the following morning} and I know that is not the case now, for that alone I do feel so sorry for todays workforce.
    .
    Originally posted by London50
    Agree with everything thing else but it's absolutely individual motivation for getting a new job.

    The one I used to work with that was let go only start of the week starts new job tomorrow back in their old profession of bar maid - lady very much after my own heart on the get up quick aspect. Perhaps it only happens in East Anglia but I'm not sure that it takes years to get another job.
    "If you are caught in a rainstorm, once you accept that you'll receive a soaking, the only thing left to do is enjoy the walk"
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 16th Jun 17, 7:39 AM
    • 4,168 Posts
    • 6,856 Thanks
    sangie595
    Actually this isn't true and I believe up to the age of about 41 on average the woman is paid more.

    There is a difference between the pay rates for men and women and the gender pay gap which people don't seem to understand.
    Originally posted by Takeaway_Addict
    Could you please provide the source for this claim? Every major study of pay that I have ever seen says the opposite, so I'd like to know on what basis such a claim could be made. It is accepted as fact that as a gender, women are paid less than men, AND that there is a substantial gender gap in pay. Every report supports that proposition. I'm surprised that one saying the opposite has escaped my attention.
    • bugslet
    • By bugslet 16th Jun 17, 8:50 AM
    • 5,751 Posts
    • 28,186 Thanks
    bugslet
    The whole gender pay gap thing sails over my head, but i am curious.

    When we talk about gender pay gap, are we talking about specific jobs, be they cleaning or accounting jobs, paid differently as regards gender; or are we talking lifetime earnings in an occupation?

    Given that it's illegal to pay people differently for the same work ( excluding a difference for experience), I am confused.

    I have one woman driver and she's paid the same hourly amount as the men, it wouldn't occur to me that she could be paid less.
    Last edited by bugslet; 16-06-2017 at 9:10 AM.
    • ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    • By ScorpiondeRooftrouser 16th Jun 17, 10:17 AM
    • 2,101 Posts
    • 3,127 Thanks
    ScorpiondeRooftrouser
    The whole gender pay gap thing sails over my head, but i am curious.

    When we talk about gender pay gap, are we talking about specific jobs, be they cleaning or accounting jobs, paid differently as regards gender; or are we talking lifetime earnings in an occupation?

    Given that it's illegal to pay people differently for the same work ( excluding a difference for experience), I am confused.

    I have one woman driver and she's paid the same hourly amount as the men, it wouldn't occur to me that she could be paid less.
    Originally posted by bugslet
    When you are talking about a job that has a defined hourly rate then I would imagine it's rare you get any discrimination (and clearly illegal).

    When everyone is salaried and nobody is paid the same amount as anybody else is where the difficulties arise. Although women are being paid on average less than men, it's quite possible that a woman would be paid more than anyone else and man be on the lowest, so it becomes more complicated to evaluate.
    • tawecdl
    • By tawecdl 16th Jun 17, 12:36 PM
    • 1,033 Posts
    • 813 Thanks
    tawecdl
    Thank you for your response,

    I do believe they were in a higher role previously and then demoted but kept their salary and perks,

    It just feels unfair although it is fair when you look at in from the outside in.

    The job role in 6 month probation, 2 months in now. I suppose it is a case of riding the remaining 4 months out and negotiate better next time round. Obviously ensuring there is a plan B if negotiation fails.

    Thank you for all your advice.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 16th Jun 17, 1:14 PM
    • 4,168 Posts
    • 6,856 Thanks
    sangie595
    The whole gender pay gap thing sails over my head, but i am curious.

    When we talk about gender pay gap, are we talking about specific jobs, be they cleaning or accounting jobs, paid differently as regards gender; or are we talking lifetime earnings in an occupation?

    Given that it's illegal to pay people differently for the same work ( excluding a difference for experience), I am confused.

    I have one woman driver and she's paid the same hourly amount as the men, it wouldn't occur to me that she could be paid less.
    Originally posted by bugslet
    You are probably going to regret asking that, but the answer is neither. The gender gap is the difference between the average wage or salary in any given unit - where the unit may be anything, such as a single occupation, a company, or a geography. The rational is easy. In theoretical terms, given that there is no substantive difference the genders in employment terms, the average for women ought to be about the same as the average for men. This should not be affected by numbers of people in employment, because the average figures even out ant numerical differences. All things being equal, there should be no average difference!

    The gender gap does not, however, measure equal pay as such, although that is a factor in the results. It also measures things such as salary balance - where there is a large gender gap, that can actually happen even if men and women are always paid equally, because the imbalance would be accounted for the prevalence of men in higher paid jobs and women in lower paid and part-time jobs. So it is also indicative of a glass ceiling, not just pay rates. It provides a quantifiable measurement of how equal the genders are in terms of employment. It would be possible to ensure that every employer paid equal pay, but that wouldn't eliminate the gender gap.

    Does that answer the question?
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