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  • FIRST POST
    • boatman
    • By boatman 12th Mar 17, 11:42 AM
    • 3,174Posts
    • 2,211Thanks
    boatman
    Babyboomers ruined it for the rest of us
    • #1
    • 12th Mar 17, 11:42 AM
    Babyboomers ruined it for the rest of us 12th Mar 17 at 11:42 AM
    There is a lot in the media about pensioners struggling. But given they were the ones demanding higher and higher pay, going on strike every 5 minutes, opening the door to cheap foreign imports. Do they have a right to complain from their half a million pound houses when the young can't buy a house?
Page 9
    • seven-day-weekend
    • By seven-day-weekend 14th Mar 17, 1:23 PM
    • 28,485 Posts
    • 52,800 Thanks
    seven-day-weekend
    All this talking about old people and as the thread is a boomers I assume you are including them not embracing technology is rubbish, I've been using computers for a long time, possibly since before you were born. The majority of my friends use, tablets and mobile phones.
    Originally posted by ukcarper
    My husband and I had our first PC in 1982

    https://images.damieng.com/blog/BBC-with-drives.jpg
    To love someone is to learn the song in their heart and to sing it to them when they have forgotten it
    'I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen. Not only because I see it, but because I see everything by it': C.S. Lewis
    St. Augustine — 'In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.'
    • tensandunits
    • By tensandunits 14th Mar 17, 1:48 PM
    • 693 Posts
    • 963 Thanks
    tensandunits
    I know- it's fronted by Jeremy Kyle - Can't stand the man. I just tried to ignore him.
    Originally posted by evenasus
    The man's been on a mission to save planet Chav from its immoral ways for years now. It doesn't seem to be working.
    • Mrs Bones
    • By Mrs Bones 14th Mar 17, 2:43 PM
    • 13,129 Posts
    • 51,328 Thanks
    Mrs Bones
    I think the big difference between the older and younger generation with technology is that those of us who are older are not completely obsessed or addicted to it.

    Many of us do love the advantages of technology, the convenience it gives us with things like online shopping or researching topics we are interested in. The ability and ease that social media and Skype etc. gives us to keep in touch with those we care about who maybe now live far away. Yet all these things to us are convenient tools nothing more.

    I started typing with a traditional typewriter, moved on to electric, then a dedicated word processor, now it's computers with all their bells and whistles and numerous printers depending what work I'm doing. Progress moves on and new things often make life easier but they are all just tools in the end. If needed I can still go and type on a manual typewriter, don't wish too very often but the option is there.

    We don't go in to hysterics if mobile signals are down or feel the need to talk to someone every five minute or urgently text someone to tell them what we have just eaten or about to eat etc. We can still do calculations if we don't have an electronic device to hand. Those old fashioned paper things called books are still available if we want to look something up rather switch on a machine. Postal letters are a much slower way of sending messages but still work and are often much more delightfully received by friends than the now ubiquitous email. If we need to plan a route, most of us are at easy with using a map. We are capable of walking down a street without bumping into people because we are glued to a screen, equally if we meet up with friends we do that old fashion thing of having a conversation that involves talking rather than everyone sit round a table in silence while they tap at a screen.

    Technology in the form of computers is not so new now. Many us older generations are quite fine with it because we aged and worked with it as it became available to the wider public. The difference is that we are not ruled by it, we are still capable of surviving without having a breakdown when technology fails. There is a big difference between being at easy with technology and enjoying it's benefits and the younger generations view of it being a necessity to life and relying on it for everything. Progress is generally good but that doesn't mean everything is an improvement on previous ways.
    “I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” ~ Maya Angelou
    • Londonsu
    • By Londonsu 14th Mar 17, 4:43 PM
    • 1,221 Posts
    • 2,569 Thanks
    Londonsu
    If you're on a contribution pension scheme then you are just taking out what you've paid in.


    If you're on a defined benefits scheme then you almost certainly have NOT contributed as much as you're now taking out.


    And as to the state pension, on average, current pensioners will take out FAR more than they've ever contributed.


    (of course if you were a higher earner then you probably did pay in more than you'll receive).
    Originally posted by wolvoman

    On average current working age people who claim in work benefits like Tax Credits and Child tax credits will probably have taken out more then they put in BEFORE they get their state pensions, personally I don't get my pension for another 4 years by then I will have paid in for 51 years (20 of which was in the higher tax bracket) and as I wont be entitled to any income based benefits at all before I retire I can say hand on heart that the only benefits I have received during my working years will be 6 months contribution based JSA, yes I will most likely end up taking out more than I put in but it will be a few years before that happens and of course I will still be paying tax so still paying in.
    • wolvoman
    • By wolvoman 14th Mar 17, 5:23 PM
    • 949 Posts
    • 1,020 Thanks
    wolvoman
    On average current working age people who claim in work benefits like Tax Credits and Child tax credits will probably have taken out more then they put in BEFORE they get their state pensions, personally I don't get my pension for another 4 years by then I will have paid in for 51 years (20 of which was in the higher tax bracket) and as I wont be entitled to any income based benefits at all before I retire I can say hand on heart that the only benefits I have received during my working years will be 6 months contribution based JSA, yes I will most likely end up taking out more than I put in but it will be a few years before that happens and of course I will still be paying tax so still paying in.
    Originally posted by Londonsu
    This thread is about baby boomers not working age benefit claimants - a wholly different topic (albeit one that you and I probably agree on).


    I made it VERY CLEAR in my post, and I'll re-iterate again. On AVERAGE, state pensions are not funded by the contributions made over the lifetimes of those now claiming them.


    A quick 'back of an envelope' calculation can show that.
    Assume £6,200 p/a for the current state pension, and assume someone starting to receive it this year at age 65 goes on to live until 85 (according to Public Health England report in Feb 2016). Excluding inflation this comes to £124,000.


    There is no way that the average 65 year old has contributed £124,000 over the course of their working life in NICs.




    An alternative viewpoint is that the government received £115bn in NICs in 2015-16. These are supposed to cover the state pension and health.
    In 2015-16 state pensions cost £92bn and the NHS cost £116bn - a total of £208bn.
    • pollypenny
    • By pollypenny 14th Mar 17, 5:36 PM
    • 21,417 Posts
    • 54,577 Thanks
    pollypenny
    [/B]


    You are complaining that most MP's are over 50 and that the younger generation will end up living through the decisions that they haven't been able to make! Well why do you think that is? Why aren't the younger generation interested in politics or in being a politician. Its because they are disinterested in society, because they are younger they have never developed an interest in politics. Their priorities are different to ours.

    Unless the younger generation adopt a different attitude, there will always be an imbalance in voting.

    Older people reside in your family why don't you tell them how you feel. Its doubtful that a conversation will start with Mum I want to become a politician I want to stop moaning about the injustices in this country and start to make a difference.
    Originally posted by fussypensioner



    Was it always like that?

    I met OH in Young Socialists a very long time ago. In the 6th firm we had a lesson called Civics, where we learned about government and had a chance to discuss issues. I loved it.

    As we moved a couple of times I was mad that I wasn't able to vote until the year that 18 year olds did, too!
    Member #14 of SKI-ers club

    Words, words, they're all we have to go by!.

    (Pity they are mangled by this autocorrect!)
    • latest flame
    • By latest flame 14th Mar 17, 5:46 PM
    • 794 Posts
    • 1,507 Thanks
    latest flame
    This thread is about baby boomers not working age benefit claimants - a wholly different topic (albeit one that you and I probably agree on).


    I made it VERY CLEAR in my post, and I'll re-iterate again. On AVERAGE, state pensions are not funded by the contributions made over the lifetimes of those now claiming them.


    A quick 'back of an envelope' calculation can show that.
    Assume £6,200 p/a for the current state pension, and assume someone starting to receive it this year at age 65 goes on to live until 85 (according to Public Health England report in Feb 2016). Excluding inflation this comes to £124,000.


    There is no way that the average 65 year old has contributed £124,000 over the course of their working life in NICs.
    .
    Originally posted by wolvoman
    lol forget NI
    "if" I live to 87(unlikely) I'll pay £24k of that £124k in income tax.
    Meanwhile on my ale I pay £1 duty and VAT per pint. In my drinking life £100k equates to 4 pints a day. So thats my pension covered, the thousands I paid in NI can be used for the NHS to tell me I shouldn't drink.
    Cheers.
    • Londonsu
    • By Londonsu 14th Mar 17, 6:17 PM
    • 1,221 Posts
    • 2,569 Thanks
    Londonsu
    This thread is about baby boomers not working age benefit claimants - a wholly different topic (albeit one that you and I probably agree on).


    I made it VERY CLEAR in my post, and I'll re-iterate again. On AVERAGE, state pensions are not funded by the contributions made over the lifetimes of those now claiming them.


    A quick 'back of an envelope' calculation can show that.
    Assume £6,200 p/a for the current state pension, and assume someone starting to receive it this year at age 65 goes on to live until 85 (according to Public Health England report in Feb 2016). Excluding inflation this comes to £124,000.


    There is no way that the average 65 year old has contributed £124,000 over the course of their working life in NICs.




    An alternative viewpoint is that the government received £115bn in NICs in 2015-16. These are supposed to cover the state pension and health.
    In 2015-16 state pensions cost £92bn and the NHS cost £116bn - a total of £208bn.
    Originally posted by wolvoman



    You may want it to be a different conversation but you cant have a conversation about how much one section of society takes out without looking at how much another takes out, because then its the usual one sided pensioner bashing post.


    And just to pick you up on your calculations the NHS is also funded by general taxation
    https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/how-nhs-funded


    In fact according to the above link general taxation accounts for around 80 per cent of all NHS funding, pensioners like my Husband still pay tax
    • JackieO
    • By JackieO 14th Mar 17, 6:20 PM
    • 14,657 Posts
    • 116,315 Thanks
    JackieO
    As a 'doddery old dear' I have both an ordinary desk top,MacAir lap-top,Ipad and a mini iPod plus a bog standard mobile that I use to text with.

    I speak to my eldest DGS on Facetime in the U.S. and think its grea,t and even though I probably have the pearly gates not too far away I have coped fine with technology, but I too prefer a human being to speak to when I buy my shopping or get my library books Just because I am tottering on a bit doesn't mean my age is a bar to working out how to press the right buttons on a gadget
    Quot Libra,Quam Breve Tempus.
    New food budget £60.00
    : 9/4/17 spent £21.86 leaving £38.14 in budget purse
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 14th Mar 17, 6:27 PM
    • 12,179 Posts
    • 33,127 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    Well, this discussion went as expected, just as all the other boomer discussions do. My own lazy stereotyping on the issue is that the young were most likely to vote to stay in the EU, which has directly encouraged millions of new immigrants. Ever wondered why you can't afford to buy or even rent a place of your own? Clue; it's got nothing to do with pensioners who didn't have to compete with millions of immigrants for their housing.
    Originally posted by Running Horse

    ....and its our Baby Boomer generation that remembers what towns and cities were like before all the extra "build/build/build" to fit in all the extra housing needed because of it and we can see how our own environments are a heck of a sight worse than we have been used to because of it...
    **************************
    • ukcarper
    • By ukcarper 14th Mar 17, 6:34 PM
    • 11,150 Posts
    • 11,603 Thanks
    ukcarper
    This thread is about baby boomers not working age benefit claimants - a wholly different topic (albeit one that you and I probably agree on).


    I made it VERY CLEAR in my post, and I'll re-iterate again. On AVERAGE, state pensions are not funded by the contributions made over the lifetimes of those now claiming them.


    A quick 'back of an envelope' calculation can show that.
    Assume £6,200 p/a for the current state pension, and assume someone starting to receive it this year at age 65 goes on to live until 85 (according to Public Health England report in Feb 2016). Excluding inflation this comes to £124,000.


    There is no way that the average 65 year old has contributed £124,000 over the course of their working life in NICs.




    An alternative viewpoint is that the government received £115bn in NICs in 2015-16. These are supposed to cover the state pension and health.
    In 2015-16 state pensions cost £92bn and the NHS cost £116bn - a total of £208bn.
    Originally posted by wolvoman
    That's £2500 a year for 49 years the majority of 65 year olds will have worked, national insurance is now 12% + employers contribution, average earnings £25,000 so over £5k a year including employers contribution.
    Of course NI pays for more than the state pension.
    • moneyistooshorttomention
    • By moneyistooshorttomention 14th Mar 17, 7:53 PM
    • 12,179 Posts
    • 33,127 Thanks
    moneyistooshorttomention
    That's £2500 a year for 49 years the majority of 65 year olds will have worked, national insurance is now 12% + employers contribution, average earnings £25,000 so over £5k a year including employers contribution.
    Of course NI pays for more than the state pension.
    Originally posted by ukcarper
    Oh well - if I've not paid in enough for my State Pension in the event (despite over 40 years full-time working) then I'll look at it as the extra is all the child benefit money/married persons tax allowance money I never saw any of and the thousands of £s a year that weren't spent sending children of mine to school
    (as I never got married or had children).

    That's the thing - one can't generalise and say that everyone hasnt paid in enough. Reason being because some of us quite probably have paid in enough in tax of various descriptions - by the time it's taken into account that we've not been able to claim money for things like that. Though I expect it is the case that those who did claim those things havent paid in enough to cover themselves.....
    **************************
    • melbury
    • By melbury 14th Mar 17, 8:51 PM
    • 9,255 Posts
    • 13,299 Thanks
    melbury
    Wasn't the whole premise of national insurance that you pay something in and you get something out if you are sick or when you retire - hence the insurance part of the name?

    Now there are loads of people taking out who have never put in a bean and moaning like hell about the ones who have paid in all of their lives and reach pension age.

    Our welfare state is a joke and a very expensive one at that
    Stopped smoking 27/12/2007, but could start again at any time

    • Sjc1973
    • By Sjc1973 14th Mar 17, 11:05 PM
    • 77 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    Sjc1973
    Peter-the-Piper - oops I certainly didn't mean to overlook the role of fathers!!! Yep- ruined many of my dads shirts with make-up stains -Sobbing :))

    Hey PYXIS - Read the letter to mum! She gets modest when complimented - but I know she liked it- Thankyou You too JACKIE O 'As a 'doddery old dear' (NOT) - You have way too much TECH and much more then me Lol! Agree online shopping does have its limitations!!!

    TESUHOHA - Forgive me for stalking your THANKYOU Button I enjoy reading your posts - Rational, Logical and in parts make me giggle ))
    • SandraScarlett
    • By SandraScarlett 16th Mar 17, 10:20 AM
    • 3,871 Posts
    • 28,580 Thanks
    SandraScarlett
    ....... and still a deafening silence as to what the Baby Boomer Bashers would like us to do now. So many of their posts seem full of resentment, with no wish to listen to the point of view of others.


    As a youngster, I cannot recall myself, or any of my friends, ever expressing any opinion about SRPs that our grandparents received. It was paid - and that was that. They were pensioners, so they had a pension.


    But I do know that our generation lived through some great fashions, with stilettos and pencil skirts still popular half a century later, that we weren't saddled with huge debts, cos if we couldn't afford it, we went without, and, of course, the very best of music.


    Bash us all you like - but it would be so refreshing if just one of you could inform us what you would like us to do now, in order to make you feel less resentful.
    • Wild_Rover
    • By Wild_Rover 16th Mar 17, 10:50 AM
    • 4,615 Posts
    • 14,379 Thanks
    Wild_Rover
    ....... and still a deafening silence as to what the Baby Boomer Bashers would like us to do now. So many of their posts seem full of resentment, with no wish to listen to the point of view of others.


    As a youngster, I cannot recall myself, or any of my friends, ever expressing any opinion about SRPs that our grandparents received. It was paid - and that was that. They were pensioners, so they had a pension.


    But I do know that our generation lived through some great fashions, with stilettos and pencil skirts still popular half a century later, that we weren't saddled with huge debts, cos if we couldn't afford it, we went without, and, of course, the very best of music.


    Bash us all you like - but it would be so refreshing if just one of you could inform us what you would like us to do now, in order to make you feel less resentful.
    Originally posted by SandraScarlett
    Sadly, for some, I suspect that their views would involve a locked door, a glass of brandy and a revolver....

    WR
    I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence. D McLeod
    Why should I allow that same God to tell me how to raise my kids, who had to drown His own? RG. Ingersol
    I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously. D Adams
    • Penitent
    • By Penitent 16th Mar 17, 12:29 PM
    • 670 Posts
    • 1,788 Thanks
    Penitent
    Why has this migrated from DT to The Arms?
    • boatman
    • By boatman 16th Mar 17, 12:45 PM
    • 3,174 Posts
    • 2,211 Thanks
    boatman
    ....... and still a deafening silence as to what the Baby Boomer Bashers would like us to do now.
    Bash us all you like - but it would be so refreshing if just one of you could inform us what you would like us to do now, in order to make you feel less resentful.
    Originally posted by SandraScarlett
    I think it comes down to realising that you are in, on the whole, a good position. Many young people today are saddled with debt before they start working, you can argue its their choice to go to uni, but the fact is the majority now go, so to have a chance in the workplace you probably have to go. The pay compared with house prices are by historical standards very different. The employer pensions are taking a larger amount of salary than before, perhaps pointing to the fact that not enough was put aside in previous generations.

    Many people are of the opinion that, I have paid into the system, now I want my monies worth.
    The fact is, the money babyboomers have paid does not cover costs, so having things like triple lock, winter fuel, prescriptions, free bus pass and many other benefits cannot be paid for by the current generation. All the money you paid in while working was spent many years ago. I know its like turkeys voting for Christmas, but perhaps you need to accept that many of the perks you currently receive cannot be afforded. What did your parents receive apart from their pension, not a lot else I would suspect, and this is what your payments at the time were paying for, not your perks now. I doubt the amount paid in pays for the NHS, let alone anything else.

    The other problem is that for many years, big companies have stripped the country by moving money offshore, robbing the country of huge amounts of income.
    Last edited by boatman; 16-03-2017 at 1:11 PM. Reason: nm
    • dktreesea
    • By dktreesea 16th Mar 17, 1:35 PM
    • 5,538 Posts
    • 8,607 Thanks
    dktreesea
    I think it comes down to realising that you are in, on the whole, a good position. Many young people today are saddled with debt before they start working, you can argue its their choice to go to uni, but the fact is the majority now go, so to have a chance in the workplace you probably have to go. The pay compared with house prices are by historical standards very different. The employer pensions are taking a larger amount of salary than before, perhaps pointing to the fact that not enough was put aside in previous generations.

    Many people are of the opinion that, I have paid into the system, now I want my monies worth.
    The fact is, the money babyboomers have paid does not cover costs, so having things like triple lock, winter fuel, prescriptions, free bus pass and many other benefits cannot be paid for by the current generation. All the money you paid in while working was spent many years ago. I know its like turkeys voting for Christmas, but perhaps you need to accept that many of the perks you currently receive cannot be afforded.

    The other problem is that for many years, big companies have stripped the country by moving money offshore, robbing the country of huge amounts of income.
    Originally posted by boatman

    Even so, there is a social contract in place when it comes to NI contributions. We agree that our NI contributions can be used to pay those claiming the state pension now, provided that, when we come to claim the state pension, we will still receive our due, paid for by workers from future generations.


    As to offshore companies, the government could have followed countries like Australia, and outlawed transfer pricing and repatriation of profits years ago. Well, in Australia's case, decades ago.


    Would we have lost out on companies like Starbucks? Maybe, but other British home grown companies may have grown in their place.



    I would have said the buy to let-ters, and the Local Housing Allowance that makes it profitable for them to overpay to buy houses, are far more responsible for the current spike in housing, including first buys for younger people, than the baby boomers.


    The government could have addressed this years ago by only paying, say, the lower of the LHA or 80% of the actual rent, towards people's rents. Plus they could strictly enforce the standards that landlords have to maintain for tenanted properties Scotland style.


    When you look at the law up here, I am surprised there are any landlords to the lower income tenants. The law goes something like: "Maintain your property or maybe we'll do the repairs ourselves at an exorbitant cost and seize the property when you can't pay the repairs off."


    A co-payment towards the rent would have concentrated the minds of tenants, aware they are going to have to stump up 20% of the rent, to find a property they can afford.
    • boatman
    • By boatman 16th Mar 17, 1:49 PM
    • 3,174 Posts
    • 2,211 Thanks
    boatman

    Would we have lost out on companies like Starbucks? Maybe, but other British home grown companies may have grown in their place.



    I would have said the buy to let-ters, and the Local Housing Allowance that makes it profitable for them to overpay to buy houses, are far more responsible for the current spike in housing, including first buys for younger people, than the baby boomers.
    Originally posted by dktreesea
    Would it be a lose to not have Starbucks? There's plenty of others paying corporation tax. I hate their standard line of 'but we do pay lots of tax', yes, because you have avoided corp tax this has allowed you to expand rapidly and now they pretend they are adding to the economy by employing loads of people who pay tax, not the company..

    I don't blame the babyboomers for the cost of housing, merely to point out the huge difference in the pay/house price ratio then and now. Although I guess there is a link in a roundabout way I'm sure.
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