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  • FIRST POST
    • shell820810
    • By shell820810 15th Oct 16, 4:43 PM
    • 380Posts
    • 252Thanks
    shell820810
    No payrise in 5 years
    • #1
    • 15th Oct 16, 4:43 PM
    No payrise in 5 years 15th Oct 16 at 4:43 PM
    I have been with the same company for 11 years and have not had a payrise in about 5 years. 5 years ago I went on maternity, returned part time and had a second child and have returned again part time. During my first 6 years I had a promotion and got good increases because the market was booming, plus increases for professional exams.

    Payrises are based on performance reviews and I have received a satisfactory score during my reviews. Employees with the same performance rating are getting payrises but I have been told I am on a good salary for what I am doing (because of previous payrises that I deserved).

    Do you think there is an element of discrimation here? How would you approach this. It has been implied that I won't get any increases unless I apply for a promotion.
Page 1
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 15th Oct 16, 4:53 PM
    • 2,076 Posts
    • 1,771 Thanks
    Undervalued
    • #2
    • 15th Oct 16, 4:53 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Oct 16, 4:53 PM
    I have been with the same company for 11 years and have not had a payrise in about 5 years. 5 years ago I went on maternity, returned part time and had a second child and have returned again part time. During my first 6 years I had a promotion and got good increases because the market was booming, plus increases for professional exams.

    Payrises are based on performance reviews and I have received a satisfactory score during my reviews. Employees with the same performance rating are getting payrises but I have been told I am on a good salary for what I am doing (because of previous payrises that I deserved).

    Do you think there is an element of discrimation here? How would you approach this. It has been implied that I won't get any increases unless I apply for a promotion.
    Originally posted by shell820810

    I think, even if there is, you will have a devil of a job to prove it.

    Remember, only certain types of discrimination are unlawful. You would need to show that the discrimination (if there is any) was due to a protected characteristic such as gender. It is not, in itself, unlawful to pay two people different salaries for doing exactly the same job.

    Supply and demand when you were recruited may come into it. If at the time it was hard to find suitable people they may have had to pay a premium. A year or two on there may be plenty of people looking for the same type of job. They hire somebody equally good for less which makes you seem expensive! You therefore don't get a pay rise for a few years in order to equal things out. Maybe not fair but perfectly lawful.
    • boliston
    • By boliston 15th Oct 16, 4:59 PM
    • 1,735 Posts
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    boliston
    • #3
    • 15th Oct 16, 4:59 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Oct 16, 4:59 PM
    This is why inflation can benefit an employer at the expense of their workers as an employer can legally reduce wages in real terms. It's a pity that wages cannot be legally rpi linked.
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 15th Oct 16, 5:34 PM
    • 4,479 Posts
    • 5,639 Thanks
    theoretica
    • #4
    • 15th Oct 16, 5:34 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Oct 16, 5:34 PM
    What matters for potential discrimination is not the change in pay, but the absolute level. If you are on £15 an hour and colleagues doing the same job to the same standard get a pay rise from £10 to £14 you have no grounds at all to complain.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • shell820810
    • By shell820810 15th Oct 16, 5:49 PM
    • 380 Posts
    • 252 Thanks
    shell820810
    • #5
    • 15th Oct 16, 5:49 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Oct 16, 5:49 PM
    What matters for potential discrimination is not the change in pay, but the absolute level. If you are on £15 an hour and colleagues doing the same job to the same standard get a pay rise from £10 to £14 you have no grounds at all to complain.
    Originally posted by theoretica
    This is essentially what it boils down to. People with shorter service doing the same job are getting paid less. But I deserved the raises I got and now my wages in real terms are going down. I suppose if there's no incentive to perform well, the company will pay for it in other ways, Less productivity etc
    • Nicki
    • By Nicki 15th Oct 16, 5:55 PM
    • 7,415 Posts
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    Nicki
    • #6
    • 15th Oct 16, 5:55 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Oct 16, 5:55 PM
    That's cutting off your nose to spite your face surely. You are still being paid more than the others for the same job so why would you perform below the optimum? You won't stand any chance of securing a promotion that way. It sounds like if you left for another employer you'd be paid less than you are on anyway due to market forces but you'd also be leaving with a less than stellar reference if you start to deliberately underperform.

    Why not just be grateful you're being paid more than market rates for your current role or look for a different role at a salary you would like rather than try to flog this dead horse?
    • shell820810
    • By shell820810 15th Oct 16, 6:07 PM
    • 380 Posts
    • 252 Thanks
    shell820810
    • #7
    • 15th Oct 16, 6:07 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Oct 16, 6:07 PM
    That's cutting off your nose to spite your face surely. You are still being paid more than the others for the same job so why would you perform below the optimum? You won't stand any chance of securing a promotion that way. It sounds like if you left for another employer you'd be paid less than you are on anyway due to market forces but you'd also be leaving with a less than stellar reference if you start to deliberately underperform.

    Why not just be grateful you're being paid more than market rates for your current role or look for a different role at a salary you would like rather than try to flog this dead horse?
    Originally posted by Nicki
    Definitely not being paid more than the market rate, in fact there are a lot of leavers at the minute because of poor work/life balance and lack of reward in general. Its not a nice place to work but working hours and conditions restrict me from other roles at the minute while the kids are young.
    • Nicki
    • By Nicki 15th Oct 16, 6:31 PM
    • 7,415 Posts
    • 26,032 Thanks
    Nicki
    • #8
    • 15th Oct 16, 6:31 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Oct 16, 6:31 PM
    Definitely not being paid more than the market rate, in fact there are a lot of leavers at the minute because of poor work/life balance and lack of reward in general. Its not a nice place to work but working hours and conditions restrict me from other roles at the minute while the kids are young.
    Originally posted by shell820810
    In that case you'd be mad surely to turn a good reputation and good reference into a mediocre one for when you want to start applying for jobs elsewhere in a few years time?
    • shell820810
    • By shell820810 15th Oct 16, 7:18 PM
    • 380 Posts
    • 252 Thanks
    shell820810
    • #9
    • 15th Oct 16, 7:18 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Oct 16, 7:18 PM
    On your current performance they judge that you are on the correct rate. If you want a pay rise you need to ask how to make that satisfactory review into an excellent one.
    Originally posted by Bogalot
    All I want is inflation, so that it stays the same in real terms. At the minute its worth less to me than it did 5 years ago.
    • shell820810
    • By shell820810 15th Oct 16, 7:19 PM
    • 380 Posts
    • 252 Thanks
    shell820810
    In that case you'd be mad surely to turn a good reputation and good reference into a mediocre one for when you want to start applying for jobs elsewhere in a few years time?
    Originally posted by Nicki
    They only provide standard references stating service dates etc
    • theoretica
    • By theoretica 15th Oct 16, 8:25 PM
    • 4,479 Posts
    • 5,639 Thanks
    theoretica
    All I want is inflation, so that it stays the same in real terms. At the minute its worth less to me than it did 5 years ago.
    Originally posted by shell820810
    It must be very frustrating for you - but from what you have said here they are allowed to say no.
    But a banker, engaged at enormous expense,
    Had the whole of their cash in his care.
    Lewis Carroll
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 15th Oct 16, 11:05 PM
    • 2,735 Posts
    • 4,276 Thanks
    sangie595
    But so do a lot of other people. You aren't the only one with no pay rise.

    What you think you "deserved" in the past really isn't the point. As you say yourself, a lot of things have changed, and you don't present a compelling argument for giving you a pay rise - other than you wanting one, which really isn't compelling. You appear to be looking for a compelling reason to say you are being discriminated against, rather than making a compelling case for why you are worth more to them.
    • Kynthia
    • By Kynthia 16th Oct 16, 9:12 AM
    • 4,695 Posts
    • 6,712 Thanks
    Kynthia
    Within the last 5 years you've had 2x maternity leaves and part time hours for at least a significant portion of the time. Now you expect a raise?

    And now you're asking if there is an "element of discrimination"?! Really?!

    Jog on!

    Things like this really grind my gears. Pregnancy and maternity is a protected characteristic when it comes to discrimination, but the employer has been completely reasonable with that here! They've kept your job open hence why you've gone back to them after TWO maternity leaves!

    And I tell you what but whilst you have been on maternity leave (your choice to have a baby), there have been other people who have been working their socks off. You don't deserve a raise over them. Not a chance in hell. And I tell you what, but if you are one of the highest paid employees there then you need to wobble your head big time.
    Originally posted by daytona0

    Wow! TWO maternity leaves and they didn't fire her, how 'reasonable' of the company to comply with the law while she took the mick in this way! How dare she complain about anything, being sat at home clearly doing nothing while others have been working while being paid to do so! Shocking!

    Do you hear yourself? It sounds like because of people like you there still needs to be the legal protections for maternity leave to protect women who bear the brunt of a couple deciding to have children.

    If the OP has had two maternity leaves this may have meant 18 months out of the last 5 years she is talking about, so 3.5 years of still working hard and seeing others be rewarded for this while she isn't. Most would feel demoralised to be earning less in real terms than 5 years ago while their peers are receiving pay rises, and would wonder why and whether they should do something. So she comes on here to get others views and gets this disgusting anti-equality rant designed to make her feel bad for daring to have children and not feel eternally grateful for even being allowed to continue working after. Clearly the OP was good at her job if she was getting high pay rises and there's no reason to think she isn't any more.

    The employer isn't necessarily doing anything wrong as pay rises may have reduced overall and as the OP was on a higher rate the employers now feel it's too high to compared to what the market demands. Therefore unless they are clearly only not offering pay rises to part time staff or mothers it would be hard to say it was illegal discrimination.
    Don't listen to me, I'm no expert!
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 16th Oct 16, 11:34 AM
    • 2,735 Posts
    • 4,276 Thanks
    sangie595
    Wow! TWO maternity leaves and they didn't fire her, how 'reasonable' of the company to comply with the law while she took the mick in this way! How dare she complain about anything, being sat at home clearly doing nothing while others have been working while being paid to do so! Shocking!

    Do you hear yourself? It sounds like because of people like you there still needs to be the legal protections for maternity leave to protect women who bear the brunt of a couple deciding to have children.

    If the OP has had two maternity leaves this may have meant 18 months out of the last 5 years she is talking about, so 3.5 years of still working hard and seeing others be rewarded for this while she isn't. Most would feel demoralised to be earning less in real terms than 5 years ago while their peers are receiving pay rises, and would wonder why and whether they should do something. So she comes on here to get others views and gets this disgusting anti-equality rant designed to make her feel bad for daring to have children and not feel eternally grateful for even being allowed to continue working after. Clearly the OP was good at her job if she was getting high pay rises and there's no reason to think she isn't any more.

    The employer isn't necessarily doing anything wrong as pay rises may have reduced overall and as the OP was on a higher rate the employers now feel it's too high to compared to what the market demands. Therefore unless they are clearly only not offering pay rises to part time staff or mothers it would be hard to say it was illegal discrimination.
    Originally posted by Kynthia
    Totally agree with every word. I notice the same poster also thinks that is ok to pay **** wages to someone if they are from the EU, on the basis that they are good wages for someone from the EU! At least they are an equal opportunity offender - it would appear nobody but them deserves anything.

    It is actually relatively easy to see other ground for no pay rise - the OP did come across as somewhat entitled. They focus on how great they were, but now "satisfactory" seems to be the view. And they pretty much said they won't work hard because they will make the company "pay in other ways". Those aren't the routes to a pay rise, especially when they can recruit others to do the same work for less pay, as the OP had stated. It isn't rocket science to see much better reasons for no pay rise than having taken maternity leave in the past.

    The OP has already identified that they cannot go elsewhere and get the pay and conditions that they currently have. That being the case, then THAT is their answer. Why would the current employer wish to offer more than anyone else is offering? Unless they are getting more....
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 16th Oct 16, 11:53 AM
    • 2,290 Posts
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    dawyldthing
    I had my first pay rise in 5 years when the minimum wage went up in April as it met what I was being paid. Unless you are making them more money unfortunately it probably won't go up
    My 3 targets to end 2016:
    1) To get down to 12 stone for 2016. At start 17 stone 7 lbs 21lb lost : 56lbs to go :s
    2) to find a purpose in life work wise and have a new challenge
    Help others by &say hello to at least 1 person a day
    • Muscle750
    • By Muscle750 16th Oct 16, 3:54 PM
    • 670 Posts
    • 214 Thanks
    Muscle750
    Girl in the office where i work left on maternity leave came back said she was going and they gave her more money to stay so she did the a few years later she had another came back saying she was going again as she couldnt afford the child care costs etc. So the management turned round and said tell you what we will pay you for 5 days a week but you only do 3, which went on for 2 years now shes off again having another leaving the rest of us thinking will she hold them to ransom again best part of it she dont do alot anyway and weve managed fine without her the rest of us no pay rise in 10 years !!!
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 16th Oct 16, 3:59 PM
    • 2,735 Posts
    • 4,276 Thanks
    sangie595
    Girl in the office where i work left on maternity leave came back said she was going and they gave her more money to stay so she did the a few years later she had another came back saying she was going again as she couldnt afford the child care costs etc. So the management turned round and said tell you what we will pay you for 5 days a week but you only do 3, which went on for 2 years now shes off again having another leaving the rest of us thinking will she hold them to ransom again best part of it she dont do alot anyway and weve managed fine without her the rest of us no pay rise in 10 years !!!
    Originally posted by Muscle750
    Then I would be asking why. Either she has incriminating photos.... or your view that she doesn't work as hard as the rest of you appears not to hold any water.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 16th Oct 16, 4:52 PM
    • 2,076 Posts
    • 1,771 Thanks
    Undervalued
    Girl in the office where i work left on maternity leave came back said she was going and they gave her more money to stay so she did the a few years later she had another came back saying she was going again as she couldnt afford the child care costs etc. So the management turned round and said tell you what we will pay you for 5 days a week but you only do 3, which went on for 2 years now shes off again having another leaving the rest of us thinking will she hold them to ransom again best part of it she dont do alot anyway and weve managed fine without her the rest of us no pay rise in 10 years !!!
    Originally posted by Muscle750
    What somebody else gets paid is none of your business!

    If you are not happy with you are being paid, try and negotiate a better deal. If that fails look for another job that pays what you think you are worth. If both fail then maybe you are not worth as much as you like to think.
    • takman
    • By takman 16th Oct 16, 8:14 PM
    • 1,526 Posts
    • 1,164 Thanks
    takman
    I have been with the same company for 11 years and have not had a payrise in about 5 years. 5 years ago I went on maternity, returned part time and had a second child and have returned again part time. During my first 6 years I had a promotion and got good increases because the market was booming, plus increases for professional exams.

    Payrises are based on performance reviews and I have received a satisfactory score during my reviews. Employees with the same performance rating are getting payrises but I have been told I am on a good salary for what I am doing (because of previous payrises that I deserved).

    Do you think there is an element of discrimation here? How would you approach this. It has been implied that I won't get any increases unless I apply for a promotion.
    Originally posted by shell820810
    It sounds perfectly fair to me. You are getting paid more than other employees doing the same work. If they are getting the same performance rating as you and are doing the same job and you are being paid more then it is only fair they get a payrise to get closer to what your being paid.

    Satisfactory usually isn't a very good performance rating and just means you are doing what is expected for your job. If you had previously been working harder and got some good pay rises because of this then your pay is likely to be considerably higher than what a satisfactory work should be paid.
    • Kynthia
    • By Kynthia 17th Oct 16, 9:22 AM
    • 4,695 Posts
    • 6,712 Thanks
    Kynthia
    Totally agree with every word. I notice the same poster also thinks that is ok to pay **** wages to someone if they are from the EU, on the basis that they are good wages for someone from the EU! At least they are an equal opportunity offender - it would appear nobody but them deserves anything.

    It is actually relatively easy to see other ground for no pay rise - the OP did come across as somewhat entitled. They focus on how great they were, but now "satisfactory" seems to be the view. And they pretty much said they won't work hard because they will make the company "pay in other ways". Those aren't the routes to a pay rise, especially when they can recruit others to do the same work for less pay, as the OP had stated. It isn't rocket science to see much better reasons for no pay rise than having taken maternity leave in the past.

    The OP has already identified that they cannot go elsewhere and get the pay and conditions that they currently have. That being the case, then THAT is their answer. Why would the current employer wish to offer more than anyone else is offering? Unless they are getting more....
    Originally posted by sangie595
    I know, I was shocked when I went onto that other thread and saw this poster comment that someone from the EU earning £18k must be from one of the more western countries like Sweden or Denmark as clearly they believe all eastern Europeans are unskilled and used for cheap labour only. Shocking. There are many skilled, qualified and high earning Europeans from every country and making derogatory assumptions based purely on nationality makes me uncomfortable.

    I can understand the OP being frustrated that they are working hard and every year and for five years they are taking home what is worth less and less. That would demotivated many, especially if their colleagues on the same assessment level are getting increases. I took their reaction on here more as a vent than a genuine plan to stop working hard and their comment that they'd struggle to get the same conditions elsewhere more of a comment about the difficulties of getting a skilled and well paid part time job through direct application rather than a flexible working request where you already work. However without more info it's hard to know what the actual situation is and there's little the OP can do about it as you can't make an employer give you a pay rise.
    Don't listen to me, I'm no expert!
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