Don't know what to think about this attitude

elantan · 10 May 2013 at 1:55PM

I have just had an interesting phone conversation with my husband, he phoned as he usually does to see how i am, i was telling him about the wee bit i have just learned on another thread ( thanks Linton) and how it will affect us when we come to retire.

He was telling me that over the last few weeks he has had several discussions with people in his work about pensions, and without exception the conversations have bordered on how they intend on cashing in their pensions as soon as they can and living off the state when they retire, they have no savings and have no intention of having any savings, they have pulled out of the company pension and are in the process of either selling their house and renting or have already completed the process. Admitedly my husband hasnt spoken to everyone in his company but he has spoke to several people ( i estimate about 6 or so) and this is their intention.

when he has said and how will you live when you retire, their answer has been word to the effect of " i have worked all my days, and got nothing, others dont work and seem to manage so i will join their ranks and claim for benefits, rent allowance etc " my husband has said but surely you dont want to be eating beans on toast? surely you want to have a bit of a life when you retire? surely you want to feel safe? their answers have been a mixture of " if beans on toast is good enough for others it is good enough for me" " you only live once", and" i would rather enjoy my money whilst i am able"

the nasty part inside me gets angry and hopes that when they retire they will experience the beans on toast lifestyle and wish they had chosen different, then part of me thinks maybe they have a point, at the end of the day they shouldnt starve and it will stop the government getting their hands on their homes etc should they ever need to go into care, they probably wont be well enough to enjoy their retirement anyway ( they drink alot )

i spose more than anything this type of attitude shocks me, yep we have to get a balance between living in the now and saving for our future, but we should really be thinking of our future and not expecting handouts etc, i find the most annoying thing as well is these people have a company that pays a great pension, something i would give my hind teeth for, i have been trying for years to get a decent pension, but have to pay into my own and only get the 20% tax relief, a few years ago a friend showed me her N.H.S pension statement, she pays less than £20 a month into it compared to my ( at the time) £120 ( tax relief on top of that) and yet she was going to get much more than i was when i retired, and yet she wasnt interested in it, she was thinking of cancelling it... i wanted to scream at her for being so un bloody grateful

am i wrong in thinking this ?

kwmlondon · 10 May 2013 at 2:04PM

Look, some people save, some people spend. I try to strike a balance between living my life here and now and not wanting to end up in the workhouse when I'm older, but then I work for a university with a final salary scheme. It's pointless getting worked up about what other people chose to do - if you're 65 and able to take 6 month long cruises while others are scouring the bins at the back of the market then that's the way it will be.

redbuzzard · 10 May 2013 at 2:18PM

elantan wrote: »

am i wrong in thinking this ?

Of course not.

You have identified the difficulty of providing a safety net that allows a reasonable standard of living, a laudable objective in itself. The problem being when it becomes a "lifestyle choice", and is seen as an entitlement.

You only have to look at the "I have inherited a lot of money, how can I avoid losing my benefits" type posts on other boards, posted as if it's a perfectly reasonable question, to see how distorted it has become.

It wouldn't be so bad (kwmlondon) if we could say "it's no skin off my nose" but unfortunately it is - there are givers, and there are takers, and the ones who have something are the only people whose taxes can pay for the net benefit recipients, deserving and undeserving.

That should be a statement of the bleeding obvious, but it clearly isn't, judging by the shameless way that people are prepared to seek advice on how to play the system.

It's understandable, if inexcusable. I posted an example a while back of how little better off someone on a basic pension, housing benefit, and pension credit would be if they had struggled to amass a pension pot of £100,000.

EDIT - kwmlondon mentions "the workhouse". Funnily enough, we have been in this situation before, and the workhouse was the solution, before it came be characterised as the problem - the idea being that work and food would be provided to those in need, but it would also be a choice that people would strive to avoid. Hard on the needy of course.

I don't envy IDS trying to sort this one out.

elantan · 10 May 2013 at 2:24PM

a pension pot of £100k is a dream scenario to me, my pension pot is currently £27k ( too high to get it paid out to me as a cash sum when i retire.. but not high enough to be of any value) it's not as if i am not trying though, i am sadly well aware of my situation

redbuzzard · 10 May 2013 at 2:27PM

elantan wrote: »

a pencion pot of £100k is a dream scenario to me, my pension pot is currently £27k ( too high to get it paid out to me as a cash sum when i retire.. but not high enough to be of any value) it's not as if i am not trying though, i am sadly well aware of my situation

I hope IDS's efforts to make it worthwhile to work extend to making it worthwhile for you, too.

kwmlondon · 10 May 2013 at 2:34PM

Maybe it's because I live in London that I feel the way I do, but you can't live on benefits. You may just about be able to survive, but it's not a life.

If there are a very few people milking the system then that's an inevitable thing if you want to help a large group of people who need social security. All the figures I've seen suggest that the people defrauding the system are a tiny minority and it would cost way more to weed them out than we'd ever save.

Making it harder to claim benefits may stop a few cheats, but the real outcome is huge numbers of honest people losing out and that's something I can't live with.

I pay a very high tax rate and I consider it a very low price for living in a civilised society, but then that's just my opinion.

elantan · 10 May 2013 at 2:36PM

redbuzzard wrote: »

I hope IDS's efforts to make it worthwhile to work extend to making it worthwhile for you, too.

i am in that unfortunate situation where i am entitled to benefits but they amount to a whole £0.00 when taken in conjunction with my husbands wage, ahh they joys of under employment and trying to get a full time job in todays economic environment, ofcourse i should be grateful as i now get a whole £8 a month paid into my NEST by my employer, thus no doubt taking me pennies further away from any help when i retire, i will no doubt be probably 20p a month too much away from getting £100 a month in benefits, so if it wasn't for my husband and us trying to alter our situation i would be eating beans on toast come retirement time..

and the annoying thing is i am doing my dambdest for it not to happen and yet others in much better positions and getting free money from their employers ( much much better than my mesley £8 a month) are running towards what i am running away from

if it wasnt so scary it would be funny

atush · 10 May 2013 at 2:44PM

Originally Posted by elantan

am i wrong in thinking this ?

No, it is the people at your husband's work who are thinking 'wrong'.

For a start, if they sell their houses and commnce what pensions they have early and get lump sums, they won't get benefits as they will be over the savings limit.

And in your case, you will get nearly 7K in cash as your LS, not entirely a bad thing?

Having said that, you aren't retired yet so who knows how large your pot will be when you retire. If you are worried, sling more in?

srcandas · 10 May 2013 at 2:48PM

Elantan I'd be wary of taking idle workplace chatter as fact.

Those who are selling up to live off the state are I suspect already with substantial debts and have few options. Others are just illustrating their frustrations - but aren't serious.

On beans on toast I remember my dad getting transportation back from hospital. On the way he saw the dumps that some less fortunates were dropped off at. When home he sat in his armchair and realised how fortunate he was (even though Robert Maxwell had stolen most of his pension

).

I like to believe most people are fundamentaly good but of course we all have our off moments. Don't be dragged down by a few bad eggs :beer:

elantan · 10 May 2013 at 2:54PM

kwmlondon wrote: »

Maybe it's because I live in London that I feel the way I do, but you can't live on benefits. You may just about be able to survive, but it's not a life.

If there are a very few people milking the system then that's an inevitable thing if you want to help a large group of people who need social security. All the figures I've seen suggest that the people defrauding the system are a tiny minority and it would cost way more to weed them out than we'd ever save.

Making it harder to claim benefits may stop a few cheats, but the real outcome is huge numbers of honest people losing out and that's something I can't live with.

I pay a very high tax rate and I consider it a very low price for living in a civilised society, but then that's just my opinion.

i dont know if i think these people are milking the system, at the end of the day they are merley taking what they are entitled to, they are just ensuring that they are entitled to it by ensuring that they have no pension, savings, home etc, i'm also pretty positive that they are not alone in thinking this way, i spose the difference between them and possibly others is that atleast they are aware of what they are doing so can't claim ignorance when the day arrives.

I agree that there are a minority cheating the system and this thread was honestly not started with the intention of starting any benefit bashing,

I am not sure as i have never had to try and claim benefits, but from what i gather it is a whole heap of hassle with paper work etc, i certainly dont wish that to be my future and have total sympathy for anyone that does have to go through the process and wish them all the best in dealing with a complicated system which i can imagine will only get harder to navigate

elantan · 10 May 2013 at 3:03PM

atush wrote: »

No, it is the people at your husband's work who are thinking 'wrong'.

For a start, if they sell their houses and commnce what pensions they have early and get lump sums, they won't get benefits as they will be over the savings limit.

And in your case, you will get nearly 7K in cash as your LS, not entirely a bad thing?

Having said that, you aren't retired yet so who knows how large your pot will be when you retire. If you are worried, sling more in?

this is very true, and whilst we are probably late in the game to get started ( due to circumstances, some of which were beyond our control, others we could've made better choices) we have always been aware and tried to deal with as and when we are able, still totally undecided about the whole pension bit or whether to go down the ISA route tbh, but at this juncture that would be another whole thread of learning for me, and patience for the people advising lol ... edited to add: i dont however think their intention is to have any savings from their house sale, my understanding is they intend on a few holidays, new cars etc, basically spending all their money and having just enough to pay their rent till retirement at the most

srcandas wrote: »

Elantan I'd be wary of taking idle workplace chatter as fact.

Those who are selling up to live off the state are I suspect already with substantial debts and have few options. Others are just illustrating their frustrations - but aren't serious.

On beans on toast I remember my dad getting transportation back from hospital. On the way he saw the dumps that some less fortunates were dropped off at. When home he sat in his armchair and realised how fortunate he was (even though Robert Maxwell had stolen most of his pension ).

I like to believe most people are fundamentaly good but of course we all have our off moments. Don't be dragged down by a few bad eggs :beer:

this is also very true, i dont know these people finances, and i have to admit when i have spoken to friends about finances i am constantly stunned at how they are circling a drain and blissfully unaware, maybe these individuals have fallen down the drain and have no other options, at the end of the day it is none of my business it is theirs, i'm just surprised at the attitude they publicly protray.

I do know a few have sold up and others are up for sale as my husband has spoken about this over the last wee while, so maybe some are selling for need and others for spending

margaretclare wrote: »

Well, I hear and read these type of arguments and they cut no ice with me. I've always swum against the current, was a working mum long before it was the 'thing to be', have done my own thing for so long that I really can't, at the stage of life I'm at now, worry my head about what others think/say/feel.

I'd only say one thing. I used to pay full NI contributions in the times when it was possible to pay a 'married woman's contribution' . I was laughed at many times by work colleagues who wanted to have money in their hand. I know for a fact that those women are not laughing now. Nor are the ones who kept their hours just below full-time to avoid joining the pension scheme. They thought their husbands would always keep them. Some of the husbands have gone off to the Far East in search of younger, more subservient 'eye candy'.

My point really is that everyone should look out for himself/herself, don't rely on 'the state' (the taxpayer) to keep them in the style in which they'd like to live.

very good point Margret ( you always do make good points i've noticed) i can only say i do my best with what i have but sadly i dont know if that will be enough for me, but at least i know that i have done my best so can have pride in that

Don't know what to think about this attitude

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