PensionFund:Roadblocks/Barriers/Conundrums

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LaCaLa
LaCaLa Posts: 16 Forumite
I'm trying to delete this...because I edited it and resubmitted (see below).
Sorry ...it won't delete

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  • LaCaLa
    LaCaLa Posts: 16 Forumite
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    Help!
    Can anyone shed some light/ assist me?

    BACKGROUND:
    I have a "Section 226 Self-Employed Retirement Plan"
    This "with profit policy" was taken out with National Provident Institution in 1976.
    Its maturity date was February 2008 - at which time a total of 32 annual contributions of £1500 each - were to have been made.
    However, payments were discontinued after just 3 years - which resulted in a total contribution by me of: £4500.
    In 1980, at the request of my (then) accountant, NPI turned the contract into a "paid up policy"

    Later that year I moved from England permanently ( to another country). The policy was lost for 32 years!
    I had absolutely no paperwork related to it, nor was I aware it even existed.
    Furthermore, NPI were apparently never informed that I no longer resided in England - or of my new address. Consequently they did not communicate with me after I moved from the UK.
    As mentioned above, I had no idea my policy even existed - until last March, at which time it was brought to my attention.
    I established contact with "Pearl" (who, apparently, during the course of the intervening years, had taken over the administration of NPI policies).
    I have no copy of the original document - with its terms, conditions, schedules or amendements (if any).
    Despite innumerable requests (pleas!) thru letters and phone calls - over the course of many months - first with Pearl and then with Diligenta (to whom (mis)management of NPI/Pearl policies appears to have been relegated by their overall "umbrella company" (The Phoenix Group) I have, to date, been unsucessful in obtaining a copy of the policy.
    I've been equally unsuccessful in obtaining any accounting or statement documenting bonuses paid thru the years. (None - I now know - have been allocated in recent years - but that, I believe, was not the case during the 1980s and '90s)
    I have just (December 2011) transferred the Pension-fund Policy to a Pearl Annuity.
    Given what I outline above - I was:
    a) forced to do so in blind reliance on Diligentas unfounded assertions with regard to the provisions in the original contract entered into with National Provident Institutiuon in 1976 (36 years ago!)
    b) forced to accept Diligenta assertion re: the fund value since I'd not received statements from Pearl through the years.

    Issues:
    1. What obligation, if any, does the company administering my policy have to provide a copy of my original contract?
    2. What obligation do they have to provide a statement documenting past bonuses and fund values thru the years if requested todo so by the policyholder?
    3. A salient and crucial issue is:
    I believe my 1976 self-employed retirement plan policy contained a valuable GAR provision!
    If so - the terms of my new Annuity ignore this feature entirely and thereby violate the original contract terms - terms which should have provided the basis for the Annuity contract and the option rates offered.
    3. The most recent explanation I've received with regard to the Annuity rate offered is that my policy did not contain a "Guaranteed Annuity Rate" but rather - was a "Guaranteed Minimum Pension Policy" - this was suggested by the company whilst maintaining they have no copy of the actual document in order to substantiate their suggestion.
    4. Even if the policy was a "Guaranteed Minimum Pension Policy" my own research on the web reveals that one does not preclude the other - ie: a "Guaranteed Minimum Pension Policy" could have had a GAR
    5. More revealing however - and I'm looking to the forum for clarification - my online Googling seems to indicate quite definitively that "Guaranteed Minimum Pension Policies"....
    a) ....did not come into existence until 1978. My policy was taken out in 1976.
    b) ....relate only to "occupational pension schemes" set up with an employer. My policy absolutely did not fit in that category! It was a personal pension plan policy.
    Pearls own web site says:

    "Guaranteed Minimum Pension (GMP)

    The minimum amount a member of a contracted-out occupational pension scheme will receive, subject to certain conditions. It broadly replaces the guarantees available under the State Earnings Retirement Scheme (SERP). "
    **********************
    sorry this has been so lengthy...wanted to try to be inclusive and specific....I hope some kind soul:wave: can offer some insight and shed some light on this mind-numbing arcana:question:...and if so - a big thank in advance for any suggestions/assistance......
  • dunstonh
    dunstonh Posts: 116,577 Forumite
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    Despite innumerable requests (pleas!) thru letters and phone calls - over the course of many months - first with Pearl and then with Diligenta (to whom (mis)management of NPI/Pearl policies appears to have been relegated by their overall "umbrella company" (The Phoenix Group) I have, to date, been unsucessful in obtaining a copy of the policy.

    Doesnt surprise me. To be honest, I woudlnt have even requested it as it would be extremely rare for a company to issue a new policy document on a case from 1976. They probably dont even know what they look like. They would just know it is table number/scheme number.
    1. What obligation, if any, does the company administering my policy have to provide a copy of my original contract?

    None. When you were issued the policy you would have been told to keep it safe as they are your proof of ownership and cannot normally be reissued.
    2. What obligation do they have to provide a statement documenting past bonuses and fund values thru the years if requested todo so by the policyholder?

    Given it's age. None. Data protection act would see records going back beyond a certain point being destroyed/culled or put into non-relevant filing systems.
    3. A salient and crucial issue is:
    I believe my 1976 self-employed retirement plan policy contained a valuable GAR provision!

    NPI didnt have guaranteed annuity rates on their plans. They had a few versions that had a guarantee on the bonus but that was all.

    With respect to GMP, you are mixing up the initials and jumping to the wrong conclusion. GMP related to SERPS has nothing to do with a section 226 issued by NPI. However, their guaranteed bonus method may share the same initials or similar name.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • LaCaLa
    LaCaLa Posts: 16 Forumite
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    dunstonh wrote: »
    Doesnt surprise me. To be honest, I woudlnt have even requested it as it would be extremely rare for a company to issue a new policy document on a case from 1976. They probably dont even know what they look like. They would just know it is table number/scheme number.

    NPI didnt have guaranteed annuity rates on their plans. They had a few versions that had a guarantee on the bonus but that was all.
    With respect to GMP, you are mixing up the initials and jumping to the wrong conclusion. GMP related to SERPS has nothing to do with a section 226 issued by NPI. However, their guaranteed bonus method may share the same initials or similar name.

    1.First thanks "Dunstonh" for your reply...just to understand - when you say "issue a new policy document" are you saying they would not issue an annuity with regard to the original policy - or do you mean they would not send me a copy of my old policy? They HAVE done the former (without "justifying" the terms); they have NOT done the latter.

    2.To your knowlege - did NPI - in 1976 - offer " Section 226 Self-Employed Retirement Plans" which were Guaranteed Minimum Pension Policies"?
  • dunstonh
    dunstonh Posts: 116,577 Forumite
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    edited 11 January 2012 at 10:45PM
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    1.First thanks "Dunstonh" for your reply...just to understand - when you say "issue a new policy document" are you saying they would not issue an annuity with regard to the original policy - or do you mean they would not send me a copy of my old policy? They HAVE done the former (without "justifying" the terms); they have NOT done the latter.

    They wont stop you commencing benefits directly or via the open market but they wont issue a copy policy document. Around 76, they would have been locally printed or even handwritten policy documents, possibly even with a wax stamp.
    2.To your knowlege - did NPI - in 1976 - offer " Section 226 Self-Employed Retirement Plans" which were Guaranteed Minimum Pension Policies"?

    In 20 years I have never heard of Guaranteed Minimum Pension Policies. However, I have heard of Guaranteed Minimum Pension or GMP as it is more commonly known. GMP would not apply to S226 retirement annuity contracts.

    I wonder if there is possibly some confusion as NPI referred to their RAC in that period as a "self employed retirement plan" and used to abbreviate it as "SERP". GMP is in relation to SERPS but that is just a coincidence of initials of different words coming out the same. An inexperienced individual in financial services me see words like SERP and jump to the wrong conclusion and may be thinking the wrong thing out loud to you.

    I just did a search on NPI policies I have on file and whilst I cant find any that go back as far as 1976 (most are early 80s), I was able to see consistently on the documents that they say "NPI does not and has never offered guaranteed annuity rates on any of its individual pension range". The traditional with profit SERP had a guaranteed level of level of annuity oer annum on retirement at the ages specified in the original policy document (which would later become the scheme age - usually 60) assuming that no fax free sum was taken.

    I do have a list of terminal bonus rates for NPI on the SERP plans going back to 1960 which was printed in 2005 and these show that regular premium (regular as in monthly, quarterly,half yearly or yearly - i.e. not one off single premium) ceased to attract a terminal bonus if taken out after 1974.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • LaCaLa
    LaCaLa Posts: 16 Forumite
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    also "dunstonh" I just found the following:
    ( it seems links are not permitted in post if one is a "newbie" member) but the web site is called:

    thisismoney.co.uk/money.pensions/article-1725336/How-great-pension-deal-nearly-lost.html
    and preface all the above with htt*//ww* (the 1st * is a "p", the 2nd a "w")

    It seems NPI most definitely did offer GAR policies...or have I misunderstood?
  • dunstonh
    dunstonh Posts: 116,577 Forumite
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    It seems NPI most definitely did offer GAR policies...or have I misunderstood?

    Some of the Pearl products were rebranded under NPI and I believe some London Life were as well. So it could be a rebranded plan. However, more likely that it is an occupational pension. They did offer them on their on the occupational schemes and the article does say that the paperwork was routed via the trustees of the workplace scheme and that is normal with occupational schemes.

    All I can say is the several where I have the documents clearly state they dont have GARs and never had on their individual plans.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • LaCaLa
    LaCaLa Posts: 16 Forumite
    edited 12 January 2012 at 12:30AM
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    dunstonh wrote: »
    They wont stop you commencing benefits directly but they wont issue a copy policy document.
    In 20 years I have never heard of Guaranteed Minimum Pension Policies. However, I have heard of Guaranteed Minimum Pension or GMP as it is more commonly known. GMP would not apply to S226 retirement annuity contracts.
    I wonder if there is possibly some confusion as NPI referred to their RAC in that period as a "self employed retirement plan" and used to abbreviate it as "SERP". GMP is in relation to SERPS but that is just a coincidence of initials of different words coming out the same. An inexperienced individual in financial services me see words like SERP and jump to the wrong conclusion and may be thinking the wrong thing out loud to you.
    I just did a search on NPI policies I have on file and whilst I cant find any that go back as far as 1976 (most are early 80s), I was able to see consistently on the documents that they say "NPI does not and has never offered guaranteed annuity rates on any of its individual pension range". The traditional with profit SERP had a guaranteed level of level of annuity oer annum on retirement at the ages specified in the original policy document (which would later become the scheme age - usually 60) assuming that no fax free sum was taken.
    I do have a list of terminal bonus rates for NPI on the SERP plans going back to 1960 which was printed in 2005 and these show that regular premium (regular as in monthly, quarterly,half yearly or yearly - i.e. not one off single premium) ceased to attract a terminal bonus if taken out after 1974.

    1. What does "commening benefits directly" mean? Again - do they supposedly use the terms and conditions (ie the rates) set forth in my original NPI policy when offering the options for the Annuity - and if so, if they no longer have the original policy in their possession - how can they do so? (Isn't it "catch 22"?)
    2. I most definitely do have a Section 226 policy.
    How do I know?
    Because what they did manage to produce for me (ie copy and mail) was the original "Proposal Form"- front and back (2 pages) with my signature and the date.
    At the top of front page, beside the NPI logo - it is headed:
    Proposal for a Self-Employed Retirement Plan under the Income and Corporation Taxes Act, 1970 Section 226
    Incidentally the back of the Proposal is headed "SERP Proposal Backing Sheet". It has my policy number and my "member no." -
    But where it says: Scheme No. - its blank (or erased/deleted?)
    And further down the page it says
    Policy Required Annuity £.............p.a................yrs cert. with profit
    .... beside that it says Prem £1,500 payable annually
    But that line which should have the Annuity £ amount - is not filled in or if it had been...it was deleted (?)
    Further down on that same page it says "Please attach any rate quotation form (GEN. 42)
    I don't know exactly what this refers to. I do know nothing was sent to me as an attached rate quotation at the time.
    3. They have just suggested that my policy may be (their words:) a "Guaranteed Minimum Pension Policy". I then went on the web to try to educate myself about all this arcana - I was already aware of the potential for confusion re: the acronym SERP. (Apparently NPI was using it prior to the State adopting the same initials as an acronym for State Earned Retirement Pension). And that is why I'm questioning this "GMP" business.
    As for "terminal bonus" apparently my policy did provide for that - but I don't believe it was "set in stone" - and Diligenta (Pearl) have just done away with it - as they have with year end (reversionary) bonuses.
    4. BTW - In your post - you refer to "RAC". What does that mean?

    Anyway...back to the beginning - Bottom line - I'm still trying to uncover the basis upon which they have determined my annuity rate.
    
  • dunstonh
    dunstonh Posts: 116,577 Forumite
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    1. What does "commening benefits directly" mean? Again - do they supposedly use the terms and conditions (ie the rates) set forth in my original NPI policy when offering the options for the Annuity - and if so, if they no longer have the original policy in their possession - how can they do so? (Isn't it "catch 22"?)

    commencing benefits or to give it the correct terminology "crystallising your pension" is when you take the tax free cash and income. Directly was reference to buying the annuity income with NPI rather than on the open market.

    Annuity rates would be those offered by NPI currently. Not those that would have been available in 1976.
    But that line which should have the Annuity £ amount - is not filled in or if it had been...it was deleted (?)

    If there wasnt a guaranteed basic annuity then the amount would be blank.
    Further down on that same page it says "Please attach any rate quotation form (GEN. 42)

    Probably an illustration of benefits that would have been issued at point of sale. It probably would have been a handwritten illustration on a single page back then.
    As for "terminal bonus" apparently my policy did provide for that - but I don't believe it was "set in stone" - and Diligenta (Pearl) have just done away with it - as they have with year end (reversionary) bonuses.

    Your policy provided for it but after AMP managed to asset strip the pearl group and fell into financial difficulties, they removed virtually all terminal bonuses on their plans across the group. Things have improved a little but that is mostly on the Pearl side where they tend to be on zero or near zero annual bonus rates but use the terminal bonus for returns.

    I recall a research bulletin issued at the time that has always stuck with me due to the language used:

    In railway vernacular, this marks the final chapter in these companies’ decline
    from mainline express trains to being sold for scrap. To the generation for whom
    Commercial Union entailed visions of John Cleese making a drama out of a crisis
    in a supermarket car park, the letters NPI conjur up visions of cute little red
    squirrels building up a collection of nuts which would guarantee a happy and
    prosperous retirement. In the 1990s NPI fell victim to an evolving market
    syndrome whereby to survive companies had to either be big and beautiful or
    successful niche operators. Many hitherto successful medium sized companies
    (NPI, Scottish Provident, even Scottish Amicable) were caught in the middle and
    ended up in bed - often willingly - with larger suitors. NPI chose (unwisely, with
    hindsight) AMP, whose subsequent problems have been well documented.

    4. BTW - In your post - you refer to "RAC". What does that mean?

    Retirement annuity contract. It's the type of plan you have. S226 or RAC is the usual shorthand.
    Anyway...back to the beginning - Bottom line - I'm still trying to uncover the basis upon which they have determined my annuity rate.

    Their market rate at the point you took the annuity.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • LaCaLa
    LaCaLa Posts: 16 Forumite
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    Hi dunstonh

    I've just tried to send you 2 pms (private messages). Actually, so far - only 1 - tho they should be read together in context.
    But apparently forum rules say an hour must elapse before I can post the 2nd.
    I'm unsure whether first actually got posted - my sent box shows: 0
    - tho perhaps it takes awhile to show up there. (?¿?)
    this is as difficult as sorting out my pension policy :rotfl:

    by the way: I love the metaphor re: the mainline express trains being sold for scrap. My personal metaphor is:
    Bottomfeeders devouring the moribund remnants of skeleton remains....;)
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