Employment tribunal: radio programme

Savvy_Sue · 7 November 2017 at 3:09AM

Interesting programme on Radio 4 earlier today about someone going to employment tribunal.

The Untold

I wasn't concentrating completely on it, but I felt at the end that the individual hadn't really grasped the ruling: very excited that she'd 'won', whereas what I understood was that the tribunal had ruled that the employer's failure to allow her adequate time to consider her options made her dismissal automatically unfair. Call me a pedant, but that seemed a bit less than a full-blown 'win' to me.

Didn't hear what her award was. Definitely communicated how stressful the whole process was. Really surprised that she wasn't in a union.

tizerbelle · 7 November 2017 at 7:50AM

There's an article about it on the BBC News site http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-41851771.

I read it yesterday and to be brutally honest I couldn't sum up any sympathy for her. She was the care home manager and had been for 8 years, she put photos and a video on facebook (enough said really) and she breached the council's rules. She should have known better.

bugslet · 7 November 2017 at 8:40AM

Not dissimilar to my case. The driver 'won' because the tribunal said we failed to follow proper procedure and should have used a fourth manager to hold one of the meetings. At the time we had four managers.

Given that he was with no win no fee lawyers hoping to get 40k+, he was offered ( very reluctantly on my part) 7k on the day of the tribunal and walked away with 2k, I find it difficult to say it was a win.

Long time ago now, but I seem to recollect athe solicitor saying that by awarding him money, it meant that he couldn't ask to go to another tribunal.

He felt he had 'won', I was far happier paying money to my barrister and solicitor than him, so I wasn't unhappy.

Masomnia · 7 November 2017 at 9:04AM

Decision's here if anyone is interested.

I had a scan through and the judgment is interesting in that it does say that in the round the dismissal was likely to be fair, and it did fall down on the procedural aspect that they only gave her two days to decide, when she was suffering with anxiety etc. Which I can see. They extended their own timelines when they wanted to consider the case, had to chase OH and so on and then demanded of her a quick decision from her when she was signed off. I think I would have advised the council under the circumstances to give her more time.

That said, I'm not sure why they gave her the option in the first place. I might personally think dismissal was a bit harsh for a one off lapse in judgement after 21 years of good service, and if it were me I think I would give her the written warning and demotion. If she didn't like it she could resign. If they thought she should be dismissed for it they should have just done it and this wouldn't have happened!

lulu650 · 7 November 2017 at 12:25PM

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

Really surprised that she wasn't in a union.

She was in a union and represented at both the disciplinary and appeal according to the link in the last post. Looks like a decision was made that they wouldn't support her further.

Link here for ET decisions; https://www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions

Curious to see what award would be forthcoming with 12 weeks dismissal notice pay and Polkey reduction. And difficult to know if she would still have refused demotion even if given extra time. Will it be less than the £7,500 offered in settlement?

Pricivius · 7 November 2017 at 2:40PM

This was a really interesting article - I didn't hear the radio programme. I also read the judgment and felt the article was not clear enough that her award is likely to be significantly reduced, not only by her contributory fault, but also because of Polkey (if the procedural error had been corrected and they had given her another week to decide, what would she be entitled to?). If they had given her another week, that's one more week's pay, but then if she had rejected the job offer, which the judgment found there was only a slim chance she would have accepted, firstly any award I based on a much lower salary, but also on that slim chance. I would not be surprised if she gets less than £7,500. The Judgment also referred to whether she wants to be re-employed - does she want her job back with the Council? It seems unlikely, but they have to ask.

Regarding the Union, the guy who represented her at the disciplinary and appeal attended the Tribunal as a witness but only under Witness Order. This means he either refused to attend or his employer refused to release him - either way, the Tribunal had to effectively force him to attend.

On another note, it is worth pointing out that a demotion is actually a dismissal and re-engagement. Effectively, you are changing an employee's contract unilaterally, which you cannot do without their agreement so in legal terms, it is a dismissal with re-engagement. That's why it would not have worked to demote and wait for her to resign if she didn't accept the demotion.

jonnyd281 · 8 November 2017 at 5:48PM

Reading the judgement, if they had given her the full two weeks intended to make her decision, the dismissal would have been fair. The only reason it is not fair is because of one procedural error.

I read this story out to my wife (RMN) nd she was horrified by the claimants actions, particularly as she was a manager.

lulu650 · 21 November 2017 at 10:31PM

The award given was £5,800, info here;
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/former-manager-reigate-care-home-13903106
I feel sorry for her but appealing this and setting up a crowd funding page will only lead to more disappointment.

Takeaway_Addict · 21 November 2017 at 10:41PM

This is why people should think more like businesses. Not everything goes right for a business and sometimes you have to be pragmatic and move on with life....rather than fight and cause further issues

sangie595 · 21 November 2017 at 11:01PM

Takeaway_Addict wrote: »

This is why people should think more like businesses. Not everything goes right for a business and sometimes you have to be pragmatic and move on with life....rather than fight and cause further issues

And this is why we still haven't got the legislation on access to tribunals right either. I was always opposed to the fees levy. It isn't fair to charge someone to access justice. But it also isn't fair to have free range access where it makes it better to settle a lost cause (by the employee) than fight an unfair case against the employer. Far too many cases of "go to a tribunal because it costs you nothing and it costs the employer dearly" - advice that we have seen on here all too often.

It has often struck me that a "fee deposit" would be fairer. You get it back if you win. You forfeit it if you lose. And the same for an employer - you pay in the same amount to defend a case; get it back if you win. That way everyone has something to lose. There's never going to be a totally fair system - but at least this shares the risk.

lincroft1710 · 22 November 2017 at 8:46PM

lulu650 wrote: »

The award given was £5,800, info here;
http://www.getsurrey.co.uk/news/surrey-news/former-manager-reigate-care-home-13903106
I feel sorry for her but appealing this and setting up a crowd funding page will only lead to more disappointment.

Judging by the photo in that article, the husband seems far more disappointed by the award than the claimant. The outcome does seem to indicate that her case was weak.

Employment tribunal: radio programme

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