The Future of Solar PV

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From another thread:
evomatt wrote: »
£4395 for 16 renesola panels and a solis invertor

Seems to be the best price for the set up. I was looking at solarworld and sma but that came out at £5395 and im looking for maximum return on outlay so the renesola seems the best option.

Price includes everything

This got me wondering. Will there ever come a time when installing a PV system will be cost-effective just from the potential electricity savings, regardless of any FiT payments in place? How low can the price go and how expensive can an imported kilowatt get in the next few years? Speculation anyone?
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  • globalds
    globalds Posts: 9,431 Forumite
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    maybe the price of the imported electricity will drop also ?

    deflationary forces act on all areas
  • SunReader
    SunReader Posts: 210 Forumite
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    globalds wrote: »
    maybe the price of the imported electricity will drop also ?

    deflationary forces act on all areas

    I'm thinking future deflationary trends too, just not in energy.

    Without FIT incentive in Uk I think it will take decades or revolutionary technology breakthroughs to be 'competitive'.

    Perhaps in sunny California or Mediterranean where they are approaching grid parity already, just not in UK.

    Looking how the installed cost £/kWhr has halved just in the last few years, arguably without the FIT that wouldn't have happened.

    Maybe extrapolate another 20 years if technology continues to advance plus certain energy cost increase and we might be getting nearer.
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,783 Forumite
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    From another thread:

    This got me wondering. Will there ever come a time when installing a PV system will be cost-effective just from the potential electricity savings, regardless of any FiT payments in place? How low can the price go and how expensive can an imported kilowatt get in the next few years? Speculation anyone?

    Hope you don't mind me boring you with my speculations, but I did have a go at this a year or so back.

    I figured the cheapest installs (and potentially compulsory) would be on new builds (savings on scaffolding, roofing work and perhaps multi-roof discounts). This would also mean that the cost would probably be added onto the mortgage. But if not, it's still a good way to account for the cost of capital (lost interest if you use savings).

    I then set up some repayment mortgage spreadsheets with the aim of them reaching zero after 25 years. This therefore gives a monthly (and yearly) cost which when divided by generation, gives a cost per kWh.

    If that cost can be matched by income (export plus leccy savings) then it becomes viable.

    [1. Assuming we are looking for the first systems to become viable, I've divided costs by 4,000kWh pa.
    2. In all cases I also added an additional £1,000 to the debt after 12 years for a replacement inverter. However, latest information suggests that on average, they may last longer than this.]

    Results:

    £5k @ 5% = 9.75p
    £5k @ 4% = 8.91p
    £4k @ 4% = 7.32p

    At the moment if we assume (for simplicity) 5p export and 15p import, and a 66% : 33% split, that gives an average income figure of 8.33p.


    The next step though is to work out where prices will go, and if FiT will be reduced to zero.

    So long as wind and nuclear are getting a subsidy of about 5p/kWh above market price, then it would be tricky to reduce FiT below that level, so that would add 5p to the income figure. Or to look at it another way, what affect will all of the supply cost changes have on the market price, well ....

    Nuclear, wind (on-shore) and large scale PV are all heading for a CfD cost of approx £100/MWh beginning of next decade. (The CfD tops up the market price, currently around £50/MWh (5p/kWh)).

    We are also seeing now an end to the cheapest (dirtiest) coal plants, and can expect more to shut, or convert to biomass (subsidised). This will push generation over to gas, which already costs more than coal. There is also a chance of a carbon tax.

    All of these factors should push leccy supply price towards 10p, and therefore import prices towards 20p. If that happened, then the income from a PV system would rise by 5p/kWh (with both export sales and import savings rising 5p). To avoid double funding, FiT would no longer be valid for these calculations*.

    Income on the PV system would now change to 13.33p/kWh sticking with the 66% export : 33% import figure.


    Yet another way of looking at it, is to turn it upside down. Take the potential income, and look at what amount folk would be willing to invest to 'get it'.

    So with an annual income of £533 (4,000kWh * 13.33p), what install cost would entice folk to invest in PV?

    Mart.

    * A FiT may remain regardless to promote domestic PV since distributed generation has cost savings on the grid network, lower losses, positive encouragement, education etc etc. and also attracts demand side investment monies.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Fruit_and_Nut_Case
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    Hope you don't mind me boring you with my speculations, but I did have a go at this a year or so back.

    <snip>
    Thanks Martyn1981. Those are the sorts of things which were going through my mind when I made the OP, without my trying to put numbers to them. I guess there are people who would be happy just to break even on the deal, if only from the ethical point of view. It'll be interesting to watch.
    Are you for real? - Glass Half Empty??
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  • Smiley_Dan
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    Martyn1981 wrote: »
    2. In all cases I also added an additional £1,000 to the debt after 12 years for a replacement inverter. However, latest information suggests that on average, they may last longer than this.]
    Do you not think that by 10-12 years inverters will be either a fair bit cheaper, or there will be more options with inverter and storage hybrid systems which further confuse the economics?
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,783 Forumite
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    Smiley_Dan wrote: »
    Do you not think that by 10-12 years inverters will be either a fair bit cheaper, or there will be more options with inverter and storage hybrid systems which further confuse the economics?

    I agree, but thought it best to be a little pessimistic. Also I tried to allow for 12 years inflation on the inverter cost (though they are still falling) and installer fees.

    Gun to head guess, I reckon on average they'll last longer, and cost less, and many of us will be exploring storage options too (by then).

    Mart.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • ed110220
    ed110220 Posts: 1,475 Forumite
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    The difference in annual generation between the UK and sunnier climates is perhaps less than many would expect.

    For example PVGIS using its defaults for a south facing 4kW system at Bath gives 3570 kWh/year. Malaga in Spain gives 6520 kWh/year.

    OK Malaga gets 1.8x more generation than Bath, but given how fast PV prices have been dropping Bath can't be many years behind Malaga in £/kWh... How many years back does one have to go for PV prices to be 1.8x what they are now? Not so many.

    The other thing that will really make a difference is economical storage, which seems to be coming sooner rather than later. Once it's possible to store and then use solar electricity at its full value (ie not dump it to a hot water cylinder, replacing gas at 5p/kWh) then the economics will change radically.

    Ed
    Solar install June 2022, Bath
    4.8 kW array, Growatt SPH5000 inverter, 2x Growatt ML33RTA batteries.
    SSW roof. ~22° pitch, BISF house. 12 x 400W Hyundai panels
  • Martyn1981
    Martyn1981 Posts: 14,783 Forumite
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    Just an extra thought when it comes to future gazing - panel efficiencies.

    Some time back (1 year or more?) I read an article about YingLi panels. they were estimating a 8 to 10% increase in efficiency by the end of the decade.

    This is different to higher efficiency panels, this simply means panels at any price (and hopefully still falling) will be a bit more efficient, perhaps 16.5% v's 15% (as an example).

    So for any given roof space and number of panels, we could see approx 10% more generation (I'm ignoring any tariff band sizes). This would therefore improve the economics by 10%.

    It could also mean that marginal installs (within 10% of being cost effective due to size, cost, returns, shading etc) may become viable.

    Mart.
    Mart. Cardiff. 5.58 kWp PV systems (3.58 ESE & 2.0 WNW). Two A2A units for cleaner heating.

    For general PV advice please see the PV FAQ thread on the Green & Ethical Board.
  • Smiley_Dan
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    The other thing is that it's not just about the efficiency of a given panel.... PV-T panels seem to be getting more traction, storage is a possibility... I wonder if there are other developments which might improve things further, in different ways.
  • Cardew
    Cardew Posts: 29,037 Forumite
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    SunReader wrote: »
    Without FIT incentive in Uk I think it will take decades or revolutionary technology breakthroughs to be 'competitive'.

    Looking how the installed cost £/kWhr has halved just in the last few years, arguably without the FIT that wouldn't have happened.


    The market in UK would not have been the driver for the worldwide reduction in PV panel prices.


    When FIT was introduced an average price for a 4kWp system was in the region of £15k and iirc the cost of panels and inverter were around £8k, leaving around £7k for installation.


    Now a 4kWp system can be obtained for around £5k. so the cost of installation is ??????


    IMO the solar industry simply charged 'what the market would bear' and with FIT initially at a stupid 40+p/kWh people could justify paying their £15k.
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