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  • stevemcol
    • #2
    • 4th Dec 12, 11:52 AM
    • #2
    • 4th Dec 12, 11:52 AM
    IMHO the EU should be a free trade area, period. On that basis, yes, we should be part of it. I can't see any justification or need for federalisation. However, I don't see why the other EU members should be expected to treat the UK as a special case so I guess 'out' is a possible option. I've no doubt though that this decision would be damaging to the UK. The policiticians should never have been able to overstep the original concepts of the EEC without further referenda.
    Apparently I'm 10 years old on MSE. Happy birthday to me...etc
  • Bezmonduk
    • #3
    • 4th Dec 12, 4:28 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Dec 12, 4:28 PM
    Didn't the PM promise a referendum on this before he was elected?
  • landsker
    • #4
    • 4th Dec 12, 4:55 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Dec 12, 4:55 PM
    A straightforward IN/OUT vote, not a fudged compromise designed to confuse the public, is absolutely necessary,, sooner, rather than later.
    I urge you all to support/join/donate to UKIP, the only straightforward party to advance this view.
    UKIP have a full policy on most current issue, see here:-
    http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies

    We are NOT a one policy party, nor are we racists, closet or otherwise!

  • Ken68
    • #5
    • 4th Dec 12, 6:18 PM
    • #5
    • 4th Dec 12, 6:18 PM
    I think it is too late, too much invstment and can't see member states giving us an easy ride if we chose to leave.
    Makes sense for them to push us out before that.
    DON'T BUY BRITISH will be the slogan in the EU.
  • Gus360
    • #6
    • 4th Dec 12, 8:49 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Dec 12, 8:49 PM
    Most of our trade is within the EU and our large companies have EU partners. The recent budget problems need to be addressed but I can not understand people who want to leave the EU.
    Have they traveled in Europe? Many countries have better trains, roads, trams and have a better lifestyle. Not everything is perfect of course but we should be playing a bigger part at the heart of the EU to our benefit.
    I would say to doubters, drive around Europe and I think you will change your mind.
  • janiebquick
    • #7
    • 4th Dec 12, 9:51 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Dec 12, 9:51 PM
    I don't understand the question. The UK is part of the EU. We had a referendum in the 1970s when we voted to stay in. You can't keep having referendums just because someone diidn't like the result of the last one.
  • Heng Leng
    • #8
    • 4th Dec 12, 10:45 PM
    • #8
    • 4th Dec 12, 10:45 PM
    Not this old chestnut again; it's a non-story as the UK needs the EU.

    Perhaps rUK could have a Swiss style relationship with the EU after Scottish Independence, with Scotland remaining a member post 2014?

    Rump UK will have less influence than Italy and will be no longer be one of the big 3. So the position might be a moot point.
  • stevemcol
    • #9
    • 5th Dec 12, 8:14 AM
    • #9
    • 5th Dec 12, 8:14 AM
    I don't understand the question. The UK is part of the EU. We had a referendum in the 1970s when we voted to stay in. You can't keep having referendums just because someone diidn't like the result of the last one.
    Originally posted by janiebquick
    Have you read the terms of the 1970s referendum? Do you think it in anyway represents the current face of the EU? We've been nibbled to death by ducks since then with treaty after treaty.
    Apparently I'm 10 years old on MSE. Happy birthday to me...etc
  • runaroundpauper
    Big trade is India china America when America bounces back that is start trade links again with Australia New Zealand if they will have us back ,we would need to put our foot down with china on human rights don't think we have the clout though ,Europe is a blundering wreck ,also mass eviction policy for eu citizens that do not contribute as soon as our eu treaty ripped up get them out anyone that benefits through cheap labour in china and makes a massive business profit in this country should be charged a china tax on there profit which should be split between uk government and charities to help the world poor
  • Nick1973
    I have just voted No to both questions on the EU. I don't believe the EU at least in its current form is working. Its not rocket science to see that everybody in the European Union has suffered or is suffering as a result of Austerity. And people forget, while we are all being fed EU Propaganda about 'austerity measures' and 'The Euro' far darker laws and powers are constantly being created through the EU. It is not all about money. There are some very good reasons why we should not be a part of the EU for this very reason. If we become full EU members then you cannot expect to even think about renegotiating. If we became full EU members, then we are looking at something not far short of the start of a World dictatorship. It is definitely not safe. Police (European Police Force) would become more like an army and our laws would be so tight you would not be able to move without being arrested. If you think some of the laws, rules and regulations are difficult now, think what it would be like under the shadow of an EU government.

    We have to keep our country out of the EU, no matter what the consequences. There are plenty of other countries to trade with outside of the EU, some very wealthy and some producing extremely high quality goods at low prices. And don't ever forget the power of the Commonwealth. So we wouldn't be short of a bob or two. In fact the reality is that the EU would be the ones ending up short. As long as we stay out, then the EU will find it difficult to survive, they know this which is why they want us in. But make no mistake, if we become full members there really is no turning back, we would have to sit it out and hope that someday it all failed and we could go back to our 'normal' lives. Life wouldn't be as we currently know it under the EU, and there would be no UK Parliament, or if there was it would be simply to feed us laws which could have been passed to us directly from the EU. By the way, we wouldn't have a vote on many laws, if not all laws through our Parliament. They would just come into force.

    And also running a business and being self employed would cost much much more than it does now. We moan now, but setting up a Ltd company would become extremely expensive, and taxes would go far beyond what they are now. And of course we would most likely earn less and pay more (even more that we are having to put up with under our own government). We would be poorer as a whole.

    I don't believe we should renegotiate either, I believe that renegotiation would be like saying 'well we don't want to be a full member, but go on then, we'll accept a few things from you being as its you'. I think it should be 'no ifs, no buts, I don't want to hear anymore, goodbye EU'.

    The trade issue is a poor excuse for becoming full members. You'd have to be blind not to see that there are plenty of other trade routes, and the EU would have to deal with us at some point once they had got over themselves. But obviously it would be on our terms, not theirs.
    Last edited by Nick1973; 05-12-2012 at 2:55 PM.
  • g0recki
    I've never had my say over Oxfordshire's membership of England, or England's membership of the UK, or the UK's membership of the EU.

    Why does only the last one of these merit a(nother) referendum?

    Anyway, if we were to have a referendum and the result was to leave, it would trigger a recession that the public voted for.

    The EU is far from perfect. It is too big and far too opaque. But there's lots of problems with the UK too - that doesn't mean the best solution is for different bits of the country to leave.
  • georgemcghie
    I think it is too late, too much invstment and can't see member states giving us an easy ride if we chose to leave.
    Makes sense for them to push us out before that.
    DON'T BUY BRITISH will be the slogan in the EU.
    Originally posted by Ken68
    It is a two way street, remember that we buy more from Europe than we sell to them. There would be threats etc. as we contribute net 8 billion. Are the CEO's of BMW, Mercedes, Volkswagen, Fiat, Peugeot/Citroen, Renault, Fiat, Bosch, Siemens etc. etc. going to say okay we will give up that business or lose a large percentage because of higher tariffs? It is also worth remembering that we cannot negotiate a trade agreement with anyone unless it is done by the EU for the EU.

    George Mc
  • georgemcghie
    Have you read the terms of the 1970s referendum? Do you think it in anyway represents the current face of the EU? We've been nibbled to death by ducks since then with treaty after treaty.
    Originally posted by stevemcol
    Absolutely spot on. It is worth remembering that when there was a referendum in 1975 we were told 'don't worry folks, it's only a trading club'. We were clearly and comprehensively conned.
    Now that it is turning out to be more of a EUSSR it is time for a vote. No one under the age of 55 has had the democratic right to vote on our future. If you don't do something about it how are you going to explain that to your grand kids when they ask 'what the hell happened'? Why did you give our independence away? Was it yours to give away in the first place!

    George Mc
  • davidxhobbs
    Having two questions gives a skewed result. I want us out of the EU and don't wish to renegotiate.
    If my desire not to renegotiate is counted on its own (rather than as part of a pair of questions), then it could appear to a biased observer that it is a vote to stay in the EU without renegotiation!
    Two question referenda will produce muddled results.
  • Goflyfalco
    I don't understand the question. The UK is part of the EU. We had a referendum in the 1970s when we voted to stay in. You can't keep having referendums just because someone diidn't like the result of the last one.
    Originally posted by janiebquick
    The UK did not have a referendum in the 70s on the EU. That referendum was whether we wanted to remain part of a Common Market, or free trade association.

    There were assurances at the time that no British sovereignty would be lost as a result, which have not only proved false but we now know that Edward Heath lied about it. He knew full well that the plan was "Ever closer union", in other words progress towards a United States of Europe.

    In any case, do we want to be part of such a corrupt, wasteful, undemocratic organisation? An organisation founded on lies and deceipt? An organisation that set out to achieve its aims by keeping those aims from the people? Sorry, count me out.
  • Goflyfalco
    Should the UK be part of the EU? Yes
    No

    Should the UK renegotiate, so it is less integrated within the EU? Yes
    No

    This just shows how David Cameron could manipulate the question in any referendum on the EU.

    There are two small words missing which could make all the difference to the result and those are, "IF YES" after the first question.

    My answer is "NO" to BOTH questions, but I suspect from the results so far that people who want out are also voting for renegotiation. If you want to withdraw from the EU, there can be no renegotiation about LESS integration. Out is Out.
  • Goflyfalco
    Most of our trade is within the EU and our large companies have EU partners. The recent budget problems need to be addressed but I can not understand people who want to leave the EU.
    Have they traveled in Europe? Many countries have better trains, roads, trams and have a better lifestyle. Not everything is perfect of course but we should be playing a bigger part at the heart of the EU to our benefit.
    I would say to doubters, drive around Europe and I think you will change your mind.
    Originally posted by Gus360
    Yes I have travelled and worked in Europe. No I want no part of the EU thanks, I prefer to be able to vote for who makes my laws, not have them appointed as with Herman van Rumpuy and Jose Manuel Barosso.
  • JRG
    Why do I have to answer both questions?

    If I answer No to the first question, then the second question is irrelevant.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    To janiebquick:

    1. We didn't vote to stay in the EU, we voted to join a Common Market. We certainly didn't vote to become subservient to unelected moneygrubbers in Brussels.

    2. Following your logic, there would never be another General Election.
  • Nick1973
    Should the UK be part of the EU? Yes
    No

    Should the UK renegotiate, so it is less integrated within the EU? Yes
    No

    This just shows how David Cameron could manipulate the question in any referendum on the EU.

    There are two small words missing which could make all the difference to the result and those are, "IF YES" after the first question.

    My answer is "NO" to BOTH questions, but I suspect from the results so far that people who want out are also voting for renegotiation. If you want to withdraw from the EU, there can be no renegotiation about LESS integration. Out is Out.
    Originally posted by Goflyfalco

    I voted no to both questions for this very reason. Why would you want to renegotiate on something you don't want in the first place? It doesn't make sense.
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