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Any Lawyers About? Question About The Sale Of Goods Act

I've had a thought about the Sale of Goods Act that could possibly work in all our favour........

If I buy an item (let's say a washing machine) and the company offers an extended warranty for say 3 or 5 years. Now I don't take these out myself, but if I kept the paperwork for the warranty offer with the receipt.

Now say the washing machine packed up after 2½ years, and the shop claimed that this was reasonable lifespan for this model. Wouldn't the offer of an extended warranty be counted as proof that they sold it with the expectation of at least a lifespan covered by the warranty?

Shops seem keen all the time to offer these warranties, even on cheaper models. Surely by offering the warranty, they are telling us that the item will last at least that long?

I'm just thinking that it may be worth advising people to keep these warranty offers with the receipt. Could this help them to prove that the item didn't perform as advertised?

Now I'm thinking that if this warranty offer is proof that the shop expects it to last the timespan of the warranty. Then we would never have to buy the warranty, and we could still expect the item to be repaired for free. The Sale of Goods Act covers us for a reasonable lifespan of the product for up to six years.

If I'm right, I think this could save us all a fortune. I've been advised that this is a legal question, so I'm hoping that we've got a few lawyers loitering in the boards.

Cheers
How many surrealists does it take to change a lightbulb?
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Comments

  • Jacster_2
    Jacster_2 Posts: 1,192 Forumite
    No idea if it would work, but what a great idea!!!

    I'll be back to check how this thread is gettin' on!

    Thanks! J
    If it was easy, everyone would do it!
  • trafalgar_2
    trafalgar_2 Posts: 22,309 Forumite
    10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Rex_Mundi wrote:
    I'm hoping that we've got a few lawyers loitering in the boards.

    Cheers
    are you sure you ain't a lawyer cause you've just confused the heck out of me:rotfl: ;)
  • Bossyboots
    Bossyboots Posts: 6,758 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    I once asked an assistant in Comet if he was so eager to sell me a warranty because, apart from his commission, they knew the products they were selling were rubbish and they expected them to go wrong in that time. On this basis, the idea of the OP would not work because they could argue the opposite is true and that they are not expected to last more than 3 years or so which is why the warranty is worthwhile.

    There is presumably an argument to be had though that 2 1/2 years is not a reasonable time for a washing machine to last and it should be repaired free/replaced anyway.
  • grumbler
    grumbler Posts: 58,629 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
    Which?extra: Faulty Goods (February 2001 ):

    Staff in high-street electrical stores are not taking responsibility when goods they sell go wrong
    If a product breaks down outside its guarantee period, you may think that you don't have any rights. But, depending on the product and its fault, you may have the right to compensation from the store where you bought it. Staff at most electrical shops we visited, though, would have you believe otherwise - that either the manufacturer is responsible or that you have to pay for a repair.
    ...
    Passing the Buck
    Under the Sale of Goods Act, retailers are responsible for faulty goods (that are not 'of satisfactory quality') for up to six years after you bought them. In Scotland the period is five years after something goes wrong. 'Satisfactory quality' covers various aspects that could be wrong with the goods, including whether they've lasted as long as you could reasonably expect. A 'reasonable' lifetime for different products is not defined in law and would ultimately be for a court to decide. But, for example, you might reasonably expect a £600 television to last longer than 18 months, but you wouldn't necessarily expect compensation if a £20 kettle broke down in this period.
    To see whether stores are shirking their responsibilities, we sent undercover shoppers out to 12 major UK chains, with a complaint about an 18-month VCR that had broken down (six months after the maker's guarantee had expired). They visited two branches of each chain. In 80 per cent of the visits, staff either stated or implied (wrongly) that the problem was nothing to do with them, and washed their hands of it.

    Consumer power
    If a store refuses to take responsibility for a faulty product, currently the only way to seek redress is through legal action which involves proving the goods are faulty. And this is exactly what Which? reader Brenda Robertshaw did when electrical giant Currys refused to fix her £400 washing machine free of charge, when it broke down after only 18 months and ruined some clothes (see 'Currys taken to the cleaners', Which?, October 1999). Brenda won the cost of repairs, compensation and expenses, totalling £190. The judge ruled that it was reasonable to expect a £400 washing machine to last longer than 18 months. Sadly, though, some stores don't seem to have learned from Currys' ruling.
    ....
    Extended warranties
    Some stores we visited took a customer complaint as a cue to extol the merits of extended warranties. Our research has shown that, in general, these are a waste of money because you spend more on the warranty than you would on any repairs needed. Out of 24 visits, 14 stores took the opportunity to mention an extended warranty. Five of them claimed that extended warranties exist for this exact type of problem.

    Your rights when you buy goods
    The Sale of Goods Act 1979, amended in 1994, says that when you buy goods from a trader they must fit the description, be of satisfactory quality - which includes lasting a reasonable length of time - and be fit for their purpose. If goods aren't 'of satisfactory quality', you're entitled to compensation which is normally the cost of repairs. The retailer, not the manufacturer, is legally obliged to sort out a problem if the goods don't meet these requirements.
    A manufacturer's one-year guarantee is in addition to these rights - many offer free repair or replacement without quibble. Extended warranties are an extension of this.
    ....
    Taking Action
    Better training needed
    Within the last few weeks, the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) has launched a consultation detailing plans to strengthen consumers' rights, by bringing into force a European Directive covering the sale of goods and their guarantees.The new law must be implemented in the UK by January 2002. For it to have any impact, though, it's vital that shop staff are made aware of it and what rights it gives to customers. But, as our investigation shows, many staff don't have much grasp of current law, let alone any new legislation. We'll be sending our findings to the DTI and pressing for shops to give staff more thorough training.
    Stores' responses
    We informed the stores about our findings. Argos, Comet, Dixons Group (which includes Currys), House of Fraser, John Lewis, Littlewoods (Index Stores) and Scottish Power replied. All said that consumers' rights are part of their in-store training programmes but they would take action, either through more training or by alerting staff about giving correct advice. A Scottish Power spokesperson admitted: 'Our staff ought to have done more to take ownership of the enquiry. Then we would have arranged to get the appliance examined and ascertain who was responsible for this repair.'
    Access to information
    We'd like stores to stock leaflets about customers' rights on faulty goods - our shoppers couldn't find any when they visited the stores. The DTI publishes a leaflet Unsatisfactory goods: your rights as a consumer, which you can order from its hotline on 0870 150 2500. You can also get advice on its website - https://www.consumer.gov.uk
  • Rex_Mundi
    Rex_Mundi Posts: 6,312 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    If a store refuses to take responsibility for a faulty product, currently the only way to seek redress is through legal action which involves proving the goods are faulty.

    That's what I'm trying to say. If a store is willing to offer a warranty of say 3 years, and the product goes wrong within the 3 years. Does the offer of a warranty constitute proof that the item should have lasted at least 3 years? Even if we never bought the warranty.

    It really does need a lawyer to be able to answer this definitavely.
    How many surrealists does it take to change a lightbulb?
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  • trace-j
    trace-j Posts: 783 Forumite
    Rex_Mundi wrote:
    That's what I'm trying to say. If a store is willing to offer a warranty of say 3 years, and the product goes wrong within the 3 years. Does the offer of a warranty constitute proof that the item should have lasted at least 3 years? Even if we never bought the warranty.

    It really does need a lawyer to be able to answer this definitavely.
    Only a court of law can only give a definative answer. I do recall Which? magazine doing some research on shelf life of appliances.
    grumbler wrote:
    Which?extra: Faulty Goods (February 2001 ):
    This is a good article to sum up statutory rights. The Sale of Goods Act was amended by The Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002. If a fault occurs within the first 6mths after purchase the trader has to prove it wasn't faulty when it was sold. There is also the additonal remedy of a replacement (as well was a refund and/or replacement).
    Rex_Mundi wrote:
    I've had a thought about the Sale of Goods Act that could possibly work in all our favour.........
    That's what we're supposed to think, but as you already have noticed it isn't really. The Sale of Goods Act (as amended) only requires goods to be of satisfactory quality, fit for the intended purpose and as described for a reasonable amount of time. This is so open ended and has been down to interpretation by the courts. In short it's basically the time taken to examine the goods and its features after use. e.g. a PC or other tecchie device would take longer than say a bog standard washing machine. Exceptions have been made for items that only get seasonal use so may take longer for faults to become apparent. The SGA is only meant to cover faults after purchase, not the entire lifespan of the product.

    Warranties are seperate to the SGA 'rights' as they are a different contract. The supplier of the warranty can dictate pretty much any terms they like. Consumers rarely benefit from them as there are terms for example, if an item is beyond repair you get vouchers to spend in store. Or certain defects are classed as wear and tear and are excludeded or only mechanical breakdown (unexpected faults) are covered. If unexpected faults did occur within a short time, SGA rights would apply, e.g. claim a refund instead of some substitute under the warranrty.

    I've just realised I'm rambling on now, but its never black and white. The only way you'll get to prove an appliance should last x number of years is by going to court with your own expert 'engineer' or 'electrician' and proving that the appliance has not been of satisfactory quality for a reasonable time. If you could prove this there would be no need for extended warranties. Therefore expect the full wrath of the sellers legal team and their own experts.

    Warranties despite the number of years they are for, only last as long as the company, e.g. Powerhouse.

    Hope this helps
    :idea:I got an idea, an idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about:idea:
  • Rex_Mundi
    Rex_Mundi Posts: 6,312 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Thanks for the replies so far. Still doesn't really answer my question though.

    I understand the workings of the sale of goods act, and I'm not really after clarification of this.

    I know that after you have bought a product. In the first six months, it's down to the shop to prove that the item was sold as described. After six months, it's down to the customer to prove that the item wasn't up to the condition it was sold as.

    My point is. If a shop is willing/eager to sell an extended warranty on a product. Then surely by offering this extended warranty, they are saying (in effect), that we fully expect this product to last for the time limit of the warranty. If the product does go wrong in this time limit. Then surely the product wasn't in the condition that it was meant to be when it was sold? We would then have a reasonable claim under the sale of goods act.

    If the shop refuses to repair the product within the same time that were willing to offer a warranty, and the case goes to court. Then the burden of proof is on the customer to prove that this product is meant to last X amount of years. Surely the shops willingness to offer a warranty for say 3 years, proves that they sold that product in the full expectation that it would last that long?

    It was actually Martin that suggested that a lawyer needs to answer this question. I ran the idea past him first, and even he's not sure of the answer.
    How many surrealists does it take to change a lightbulb?
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    Fish
  • Bossyboots
    Bossyboots Posts: 6,758 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    Rex_Mundi wrote:

    My point is. If a shop is willing/eager to sell an extended warranty on a product. Then surely by offering this extended warranty, they are saying (in effect), that we fully expect this product to last for the time limit of the warranty. If the product does go wrong in this time limit. Then surely the product wasn't in the condition that it was meant to be when it was sold? We would then have a reasonable claim under the sale of goods act.


    I still think the shop can put the opposite view, that they do not expect it to last three years, that is why they recommend the warranty. Remember, the warrant is not actually "offered". This would imply it is free. It is an insurance policy they are selling. This is a fundamental difference if put before a Court. If they were offering a free extended warranty, then there would be some argument for suggesting they expected the product to last that long because clearly it would not make good business sense to offer something that could cost them a lot of money.
  • Rex_Mundi
    Rex_Mundi Posts: 6,312 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    I still think the shop can put the opposite view, that they do not expect it to last three years, that is why they recommend the warranty.

    Why would you sell someone a warranty for a product if you didn't think the product is going to last that long? That seems like madness to me.

    If a shop only thought a product would last 2 years. It would be crazy for them to sell 3 year warranties on it. This would mean that they fully expect 100% of their customers to be claiming on this warranty in the 2 to 3 year period. This would make very bad buisiness sense!

    ........Still waiting to see if we have any proper legal opinions on this question.
    How many surrealists does it take to change a lightbulb?
    ...
    ...
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    Fish
  • trace-j
    trace-j Posts: 783 Forumite
    Rex_Mundi wrote:
    If a shop only thought a product would last 2 years. It would be crazy for them to sell 3 year warranties on it. This would mean that they fully expect 100% of their customers to be claiming on this warranty in the 2 to 3 year period. This would make very bad buisiness sense!
    Fair point Rex, as I mentioned above, extended warranties aren't worth the paper they're written on. The seller of a warranty can dictate whatever terms they like. e.g. appliance lasts 2 1/2 years, warranty lasts 3yrs. So knowing full well, the 1/2yr is subject to the sellers terms. e.g. beyond repair, vouchers towards something else. Thus instilling further purchases within the chain/company/legal entity.
    Rex_Mundi wrote:
    Still waiting to see if we have any proper legal opinions on this question.

    Only a court of law can decide, I doubt you'll find a "proper legal opinion" that will stand up in court for free within this forum.

    Regards
    t-j
    :idea:I got an idea, an idea so smart my head would explode if I even began to know what I was talking about:idea:
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