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Charging Order - Advice please....

Hi,

I am hoping someone has come across this before and can help??

I had to go to a court hearing today for a redetermination of a CCJ, Nationwide wanted a forthwith judgement so they could apply for a charging order. The judge who was extremely rude and didn't give me an opportunity to speak sided imediately with Ntwide and granted them permission to apply for a charging order.

He didn't grant the forthwith judgement and when I questioned this as I had read up on here and national debtline website that a charging order could only be issued when payments where missed, ( I haven't missed one payment) said the law had moved on from there and he could grant permission.

I can't believe the National debtline's advice is out of date and I really would appreciate any advice on this.

The judge was completely uninterested in what I had to say and once Ntwide had stated their case agreed with what they wanted even their solicitor looked confused....

The amount I owe is about 12.5k and my property is negative equity, I also only own 50% so would need about 24k to pay the charging order when I sell the property - it doesn't make sense...

Thanks

Laura
«1

Comments

  • DarkConvict
    DarkConvict Posts: 6,347 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    Court issues are not something i know about but there are those on here that do, i would assume the first approach here would be to appeal the court decision as you were unable to put your case forward.
    Although no trees were harmed during the creation of this post, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.

    There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies
  • RAS
    RAS Posts: 35,931 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    laura

    The judge was wrong. There was a change in the law, but the Government has decided not to enact that part of the changes.

    You probably need legal advice on whether you can appeal.

    The case law supports you
    I had read up on here and national debtline website that a charging order could only be issued when payments where missed, ( I haven't missed one payment)

    You need to quote Mercantile v Ellis, which is still the relevant case.

    As a next step, please can you advise

    1. Did you admit the case (not defend when the CCj was applied for)?
    2. have you got the default letter and termination letters regarding this account?
    3. with you post count, you will not be able to post links, so can you go over to other forums and post a few extra times to get additional forum rights.

    Our CCJ/CO specialist 10past6 will need to see copies of the documents. Do you have a scanner?
    If you've have not made a mistake, you've made nothing
  • 10past6
    10past6 Posts: 4,962 Forumite
    RAS wrote: »
    You need to quote Mercantile v Ellis, which is still the relevant case
    Very few "District Judges" FULLY understand the above case law.

    A creditor MUST obtain a forthwith judgement prior to applying for a CO.

    If you admitted the debt, you'll have great difficulty preventing the CO, although not impossible.
    Click here for Martins (MSE) advice on who to contact with Debt Issues - YOU HAVE NO REASON TO USE A FEE PAYING DEBT MANAGEMENT COMPANY- THEY CANNOT DO ANYMORE FOR YOU THAN THOSE LISTED IN MY LINK ABOVE.

    All information given by myself is offered informally and without prejudice - if in doubt seek help from a qualified and insured professional
  • my OH tried to quote the case law but again the judge wasn't interested he just said again the law had moved on... I can't emphasis how rude and uninterested the judge was he made it really difficult for me to speak and wasn't going to let my other half speak!

    when you say did I admit the debt?? when i had the court papers for the CCJ CCCS told me to say I agree to the debt (tick the relevant box) and send off the relevant documentation. So I think I have admitted the debt.

    I will try and find all the documentation I have had but OH has a habit of destroying any old documentation....! It has caused problems before!

    The judge said I had to take my evidence when Nationwide apply for the charging order and get legal advice then

    The main point of Nationwide's case was that it would take me 7 years to pay off the debt at my current rate but if a charging order is applied who knows how long it will take for me to have enough money in the flat to pay it off!
    Also I have stuck to the CCJ agreement so I just don't understand how they can make these judgements... Sorry to rant I just don't know enough information and the judge was so intimidating

    Thanks to all

    Laura
  • 10past6
    10past6 Posts: 4,962 Forumite
    laura82 wrote: »
    my OH tried to quote the case law but again the judge wasn't interested he just said again the law had moved on
    You have the right to an appeal to higher court (Circuit Judge) regarding the judge's behaviour, but that is a separate issue from the initial claim, and I doubt that would prevent the creditor seeking a "Forthwith Judgement"
    laura82 wrote: »
    when i had the court papers for the CCJ CCCS told me to say I agree to the debt (tick the relevant box) and send off the relevant documentation. So I think I have admitted the debt
    I posted only yesterday about members not involving debt charities re litigation for the very reason you find the situation your in.
    laura82 wrote: »
    Also I have stuck to the CCJ agreement so I just don't understand how they can make these judgements
    The creditor has a legal right to pursue a "Forthwith Judgement" It basically means should you sell the property, the creditor takes their cut first, whilst you may be in negative equity at present, no ones knows how the housing market will be in several years time, very, very, very few "Forced Sale" are granted, providing you keep to the agreed payments, a creditor would have to have a very good reason for making a "Forced Sale" application.
    Click here for Martins (MSE) advice on who to contact with Debt Issues - YOU HAVE NO REASON TO USE A FEE PAYING DEBT MANAGEMENT COMPANY- THEY CANNOT DO ANYMORE FOR YOU THAN THOSE LISTED IN MY LINK ABOVE.

    All information given by myself is offered informally and without prejudice - if in doubt seek help from a qualified and insured professional
  • Thanks for your help -

    can anyone advise on where I stand when I have to go to the final hearing which I enevitably will do.....

    If I quote the case law mentioned above and the fact that I have kept up my repayments - am getting the picture there is not much I can do it is just so fustrating as I feel they have all the power!

    re - the judges behaviour, I don't want to make the situation worse but would advise anyone going into one of these situations for the first time to take someone with you and to be prepared for all eventualities and to be strong! hindsight is a wonderful thing and I wish I had had the confidence to stand up for myself a bit more!

    Laura :confused:
  • 10past6
    10past6 Posts: 4,962 Forumite
    laura82 wrote: »
    can anyone advise on where I stand
    Unfortunately you have few options, because you admitted the debt initially, this moves the case onto he next stage, you could make a “Set Aside” application which will cost you £75.00, the problem you're facing is explaining to a judge why you admitted the debt, sadly ignorance of the law is not a good enough defence, that's the sole reason a defendant has xxx days to file a defence.
    Click here for Martins (MSE) advice on who to contact with Debt Issues - YOU HAVE NO REASON TO USE A FEE PAYING DEBT MANAGEMENT COMPANY- THEY CANNOT DO ANYMORE FOR YOU THAN THOSE LISTED IN MY LINK ABOVE.

    All information given by myself is offered informally and without prejudice - if in doubt seek help from a qualified and insured professional
  • fatbelly
    fatbelly Posts: 23,138 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Cashback Cashier
    The judge was wrong:

    As you haven't defaulted on an order they cannot go for a charging order. I have copied the advice that was sent out to CAB advisers about an error in the 'green book' that judges use.
    Specialist Support has received a number of enquiries from advisers where a district judge has made an instalment order and at the same time given the creditor leave to apply for a charging order, or has given the creditor leave to apply for a charging order even though there was already an instalment order in place. These orders have been made at a hearing after which there is no right to ask for re-determination.

    The fact that district judges are making such orders may be due to an incorrect statement in the Green Book which all the district judges refer to. The notes to CPR3.3 [1] on page 1950, anticipate the insertion of s1(7) into the Charging Orders Act 1979, by s93 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 (TCEA), where the fact that the debt is payable by instalments and there has been no default in payment does not prevent the court from making a charging order. This is incorrect because s93 has not been brought into force. Fortunately on p1943, beneath s1 of the 1979 Act it is noted that “Sub-sections (6) to (8) are inserted by the [TCEA] with effect from a date to be appointed.”

    Indeed, there are currently no plans to bring this provision into force – see the ministerial statement from 17 March beginning at http://www.publications.parliament.u...0317m0001.htm.

    The correct position is that where the county court has made an order for payment of any sum of money by instalments, execution on the order shall not be issued until after default in payment of some instalment according to the order: s86(1) County Courts Act 1984.

    For this purpose, ‘execution’ includes a charging order. On the other hand, a charging order can be made despite the making of an instalment order where the instalment order was made after the date of the interim order (for example, on a variation application). The authority for this is Ropaigealach v Allied Irish Bank [2001] EWCA Civ 1790. Instalment orders are made under s71(1) of the County Courts Act 1984 and there is no power to attach conditions regarding enforcement to such an order.

    Where an adviser is present in court and such an order is proposed, the adviser should point out to the district judge that s/he has no jurisdiction to make such an order. When advising on this issue after the event, it is essential that advisers obtain a copy of the order and look at the exact wording.

    Where the court makes a forthwith order and gives the creditor leave to issue a charging order whilst staying all other enforcement so long as the client makes specified payments (so-called 'hybrid orders'), that is not an instalment order for this purpose.

    It is an order for payment forthwith with a stay of enforcement: such orders are made under s71(2) which specifically allows conditions to be attached.
  • Thanks for this - I will copy this for when I need it!

    Laura
  • Verbatim
    Verbatim Posts: 4,831 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts
    There was a thread a few weeks ago about charging orders I think being unenforceable if the property is jointly owned. Anyone???
    CCs @0% £24k Dec 05 £19,621.41 Au £13400 S 12600 Oct £11,981 £9481 £7500 Nov £7250 D £7100 Jan 6950 F £5800 Mar£5400 May £4830 June £4660 July £4460 Aug £3200, S £900, £0 18/9/07 DFW Nerd 042
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