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[MSE Lawrence]

This is the discussion to link on the back of Martin's blog. Please read the blog first, as this discussion follows it.

Read Martin's "Should Which? launch its own product range?" Blog.

Please click 'post reply' to discuss below. Thanks

[nim]

I always found the "readers digest" and free gift (of very dubious quality) approach to selling their magazines to be make the Consumer Association appear far less trustworthy than they should (although I believe this approach to magazine sales stopped a few years back).

They have also had other services - for example an ISP (not sure if that is still going), which never gave the appearence of being technically competent (then again no consumer ISP is ever competent - at least not for more than 3 months). I presume that was another ISP white-labelling services.

On issues that I have a solid background in, I generally find their advice to be of dubious quality. This therefore makes me question their overall compentence.

As such I would tend to not consider Which? branding on any product of any kind to be either a positive recommendation for the product or positive in any way for the organisation (apart from possibly financially by separating the gullible from their money, but that reduces the overall trust in the brand).

[rooo]

So if say, Sony, started reviewing Blu-ray players, would anyone trust them when they said there was the best? I doubt it. The same would go for Which?, and this will seriously jeopardise any brand independence they may have had - and makes me very wary.

[hollydays]

No-they need to remain as impartial as possible.

[*MF*]

The immediate reaction, mine included, is to say no, Which should remain independent. But perhaps, given thought, there may be services where it could have a part to play.

I haven't thought in any depth, but one thought ...

We know, whichever Government we have after the next election, we face cut backs in services or tax increases, or most likely both - so are there Government Departments or Local Authority Departments where "Which" could more effectively and economically play a part?

- how about "Trading Standards" as just one example? With "Which" taking on the role of enforcing standards?

[wizk1]

Agreed. Which? should stick to what they've done for years. A conflict of interest would kill their reputation.

[MrsBartolozzi]

I'm sure I did a survey last year about Which? maybe doing adverts on their site. I thought this showed a lack of impartiality and unfair to consumers, making them appear to endorse a product which may fail every which? test going, but can afford to pay the advert costs.
This is a similar line of thinking - they should remain independent, impartial and if they don't, how will anyone trust what they have to say?

[jpjp]

If Which? launch their own product range they are undermining the very core of their organisation. They are effectively committing suicide with their organisation. Mad!

The heading of their website says "No advertising, no bias, no hidden agenda" so who are they trying to kid? If they put their own name to a product, they must have some extra commercial knowledge of that market, thus creating bias and hidden agenda.

I wonder what's behind this idea? Loss of members leading to a funding crisis perhaps?

[prowla]

(We used to get Which, but I got a bit bored with it and didn't particularly agree with their reviews of items I knew about.)

But they are supposed to be independent and impartial, so I don't see how having their own branded products can be consistent with that.

[oakhouse13]

Why now? It may be commercial pressure but there are also fundamental changes coming in consumer advice whatever government we have. The conclusion from the last decade has to be that consumers are not where they need to be, they have over spent. No government can tackle debt without also addressing why consumers have taken on far too much debt personally, and doing something about it. If Which? comes into the market with completely transparent products, simple pricing, that will be a good thing in my book.

Having said that I was really unimpressed with Which?'s evidence to the Treasury Select Committee on the banking crisis. Its rep asked by an MP about store cards and if retailers pay their staff incentives to sell them said he did not know. I realise store cards are a product niether this site or Which? would recommend but I did think Which? should know inside out how they work.

[Ken68]

As far as I am concerned, Martin/MSE has already replaced WHICH. Especially the input from the Forum.

[lighter]

I have been a subscriber to Which? for over 40 years, and value their independent assessment. Sometimes the details of their judgment for 'Best Buy' may incline me to buy another item because those some of the issues aren't important to me.

If Which? brands aren't the best, why sell them ?
If Which? brands were Best Buys every time I would doubt their judgment or their independence.

Catch 22.
Once Which? (and I too preferred Consumer's Association) becomes another trader I will seriously consider my membership.

[gropinginthedark]

In areas of my expertise I find their best buy conclusions are rubbish - and so I infer that applies to most/all of their best buys. In any case the best buy for my circumstances/requirements will often differ from yours.

What is more use is the text/tables so I get impartial information like:

• Usability (the product has feature X but can you work out how to access it?)
• Feature list (I may be unaware that some makes/models offer a feature I'd never even thought about - but now I want it)
• Feature description/explanation (just what does "HD ready" mean, what's the difference between "orange squash" and "orange fruit drink")
• Robustness/reliability/repairability/cost of spares & repairs

Then I can draw my own conclusion about what suits my needs best.

I would be more kindly disposed towards allowing manufacturers to pay to carry a "Which approved" label but with great care, avoiding "Which best buy" so one model wouldn't have a "monopoly" of the Which endorsement and minimise the risk of manufacturers buying their way to an undeserved endorsement. On the other hand Which could hold some power over the makers "if you don't fix this problem you'll not get our endorsement".

I'd also like to see "Which approved" (standard?) contracts, guarantees, terms and conditions so I don't need to read the small print to see if they've sneaked in something dodgy.

[Countertenor]

I am also dubious about Which? launching their own products. What price independence then? That said, I've often found that unless you buy the recommended products quite quickly after they've been reviewed, they aren't available when you do want them.

[Kenarf]

I agree with a lot of the contributors that Which should not branch out - it's called 'running with the hare and hunting with the hounds' Who will assess 'Which?' product?

I would like to be able to buy specific Which? reports online without having to subscribe because most of the stuff they cover is of no interest to me.

I also found Which?'s legal advice department fairly useless when trying to sort out a time-share (silly me!)

[thelawnet]

Which have already started to 'sell out'. A few months ago I emailed them about washing powder adverts featuring the claim 'Which Best Buy'. Years ago they got very upset about anyone making this claim, and would sue.

The reply from Which was that now anyone can pay to license the 'Best Buy' logo.

Doesn't do much for their editorial integrity - but then Which is being increasingly marginalised by online reviews. Want to buy a new TV? Don't waste your time looking at Which - you'll get far better info on avforums etc.

[NeverInDebt]

Definitely not it will make them look impartial

[taxiphil]

I've always thought Which?'s methods of statistical analysis to be fatally flawed, and hence an unreliable guide for consumers.

For example in their annual car survey based on reader feedback, Japanese models (such as the Honda Jazz in recent times) always fare well, while big-sellers such as the Mondeo/Vectra end up in the mid-to-bottom end of the table.

The reason for this all too obvious, yet Which? take no account of it. Cars like the Jazz are bought by a totally different demographic (no offence, but I'm talking about retired people who drive the car very gently and tend to use it for the odd supermarket run) compared to big sellers from Ford and Vauxhall which tend to be purchased brand new mainly as company cars and get thrashed, clocking up very high mileages.

Clearly, then, there is going to be a link between the heavier usage and the number of faults that crop up. I'm sure if a Honda Jazz was put through the same rigorous punishment as the typical Mondeo it would suffer just as many breakdowns, if not more.

Also their product ratings take no account of the cost of the item. In other words, the final rating should ideally be a ratio of the item's cost compared to its reliability.

To put my argument another way, a £400 washing machine may have 94% reliability, and a £200 model may have 89% reliability. On that basis Which? would recommend the £400 model. But for that price you could buy two of the £200 model and keep the second one as a 'spare' in your garage - achieving almost 100% reliability for the same price.

[jamesd]

When I phoned to cancel an online subscription earlier this year the phone rep asked me to consider staying to get the benefit of their energy supplier price comparison service. Which is available at no charge to anyone whether they have a subscription or not.

It wasn't a one-off. When I questioned this I was told it was a required script item. Asked if I had feedback about the subscription I complained about this deception.

You're correct to have reservations. And I no longer trust the ethics of this organisation.

[meher]

consistency is the hallmark of any successful venture specially when you seek to empower consumers, my opinion only ofcourse

So if which launches their own brand, it would weaken their original cause because as consumers we expect them to ask us to shop around for the best and not settle for their own. Yes, there would be an implication that theirs would be the best considering their primary business ethos.