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The New Fat Scotland 'Thanks for all the Fish' Thread.
Comments
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No, not "Independence Referendum", SNP Referendum, spawned to further SNP policies but not to benefit Scotland.Union, not Disunion
I have a Right Wing and a Left Wing.
It's the only way to fly straight.0 -
No, not "Independence Referendum", SNP Referendum, spawned to further SNP policies but not to benefit Scotland.
An illegal SNP referendum, that is contested by one side only, that is based on a choice between two unknown outcomes, that cannot be authorised by any other responsible individual country or the EU.
It would lead the Scottish public down a total blind alley, waste time and money, and it would destroy the SNPs domestic and international credibility.
Would the other EU countries want to admit a new country that demonstrates its lack of respect for its partners in such a way. Would Spain support an illegal Scottish ref2? Would the EU be able to push forward with a spoilt child in the corner threatening vetoes at the first sign of any policy deemed 'anti-scottish'?
the SNP are not that stupid. They need the polls, they need Westminster and they need international credibility. They have none of that at the moment and they know it.0 -
Shakethedisease wrote: »No not you, your posts. They always begin with some sort of nonsense like 'drivel' or 'manure' without offering any evidence as to why.
The wording is simply your own interpretation and you're entitled to it. But only your own opinion it certainly is.
You keep missing out the possible independence referendum in between I'm afraid. Labouring under the assumption that Scotland will leave the EU and that's that. Well put it down to spin or deflection or whatever you like. But that's the thing you keep discounting and for most of us following Scottish politics, we do know it's a very real prospect. Well past time you started factoring it in to your scenarios.
Article 50 and then an extremely likely Scottish referendum.. If there's a Yes vote then no, Scotland won't be leaving the EU under the same circumstances as England and Wales are. Scotland will be removed from Article 50 negotiations and will have to negotiate from there on in as an independent entity. For the very obvious reason that Scotland won't be party to Westminster politics anymore. Certainly they won't under any circumstances be signing up to leaving the EU since Scotland didn't vote for it.
While it may have been a UK wide referendum, if Scotland votes to leave the UK then the results Scotland wide would again, very obviously, take precedence. Article 50 would no longer be applicable since Scotland would've left the UK before negotiations end with the EU and an end date in sight.
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Scotland won't be in that State anymore by the end of the two years should she vote to leave the UK. This is where your argument falls down entirely. Scotland won't be party to Article 50. If the EU is to say Scotland can't be a member then it will be via other means after an independence vote.
Also the legislative competence legalese is also likely to cause massive problems. Because Holyrood will never consent to Brexit being written into devolved legislation. Westminster MP's will therefore have to vote for it to apply. Most Labour and Lib Dem MP's probably won't, but the Tories might. You must know how that will play with the Scottish public. You can't surely be that blinkered ?
ps In my own opinion Sturgeon will call a referendum no matter what the polling. Timing is everything though, and just after Westminster MP's have voted to overrule Holyrood to take Scotland out of the EU barely 2 years after that 'Vow' would be good.
pps I used the bold because you seem to like it.
Yet more facile attempts at brainwashing the unwary - with the only truly cogent parts highlighted in red.
The rest is - as usual - nothing other than oft-repeated wishes of a delusional mindset.
Note please the constant use of presumptive terminology such as "if"; "likely"; "should" and even "In my own opinion" in the above quote.
You accuse me of nonsense yet this proves how truly lamentable your so-called "debate" has become.
If you really dislike my (accurate, it must be said) terminology then cease your own condescending phraseology.
Not just to myself but also to other posters.
Writing "pps I used the bold because you seem to like it." and "Well let's all bow to your superior knowledge.." are hardly conducive to good debate and add nothing positive to your literary style.
It is an unnecessary and (frankly) objectionable tone, yet you wonder at my style of response, which simply (in return) objects to your style.
Yet again, your inane approach is unworthy of the time spent in my response.0 -
Today it has been revealed that Michael Russel will meet with David Davis at Downing St. to discuss Brexit.
Do you maybe think this visit is because "Opposition parties have questioned the SNP government's motives, accusing the first minister of being "obsessed" with using the Brexit vote as an excuse to hold a second independence referendum."?The pair are expected to discuss the role of the Scottish government in Brexit negotiations.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37366162
Also today, following a poll between September 5th & 11th by Ipsos Mori it does appear that 54% of Scots still oppose a second independence ballot within the next two years, with only 41% supporting the idea.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/poll-scotland-now-split-down-the-middle-on-independence-1-4230979
This (together with earlier, similar polls) would strongly suggest that - whatever some iScotland supporters herein would have you believe - a second independence ballot any time soon is very unlikely.0 -
Shakethedisease wrote: »pps I used the bold because you seem to like it.
I only read the bolded and coloured bits in Jock's posts. Much easier to digest and no need to trawl through all the guff.
Don't blame me, I voted Remain.0 -
There will be a rally in St George Square, Glasgow on Saturday 17th September to mark the second anniversary of the independence referendum - and to show support for "indyref2".
Support has been further garnered by use of social media, with Facebook group "Hope over fear" claiming the event will be a "well organised family friendly event with speakers, performers and entertainment for all to enjoy."
http://www.greenocktelegraph.co.uk/news/trendingacrossscotland/14742220.Second_anniversary_of_independence_referendum_set_to_be_marked_by_rally_in_George_Square/?ref=rl&lp=21,000 people have said they will be attending the event with another 1.5k interested in going.
(Read some of those comments at the end to see some of the true feelings within Scotland.)
With a population of over 5 million, realistically it would take loads more to attend for "indyref2" to have any real chance of viability.0 -
Another nail in the SNP's iScotland coffin?
A meeting of the full council on Tuesday in Dumfries & Galloway will be "calling for the local authority to seek Westminster approval to allow residents to vote for the region to either remain part of the UK or to leave if a second indy poll gets the go-ahead."
Dumfries & Galloway had by 65.7% majority voted to remain in the UK in 2014.
In the EU referendum the area had a 71.4% turnout with 53% voting to remain.
This has led D&G councillors to say:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/indy-fear-prompts-calls-dumfries-8832749“The SNP Government does not have a mandate to take Dumfries and Galloway out of the United Kingdom against its will.”
So for those saying that Scotland can not leave the EU against it's will, how can Scotland then propose independence against the will of parts of Scotland?0 -
I use the words 'if' because there both a second referendum and a subsequent Yes vote are both question marks. I use the words 'in my own opinion' to make it clear that it's my own view. If that's a lamentable thing to do, then call me Mrs Lamentable.A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »Yet more facile attempts at brainwashing the unwary - with the only truly cogent parts highlighted in red.
The rest is - as usual - nothing other than oft-repeated wishes of a delusional mindset.
Note please the constant use of presumptive terminology such as "if"; "likely"; "should" and even "In my own opinion" in the above quote.
You accuse me of nonsense yet this proves how truly lamentable your so-called "debate" has become.If you really dislike my (accurate, it must be said) terminology then cease your own condescending phraseology.
Not just to myself but also to other posters.
Writing "pps I used the bold because you seem to like it." and "Well let's all bow to your superior knowledge.." are hardly conducive to good debate and add nothing positive to your literary style.
It is an unnecessary and (frankly) objectionable tone, yet you wonder at my style of response, which simply (in return) objects to your style.
Yet again, your inane approach is unworthy of the time spent in my response.
Well don't respond then. Simple. However, you've totally failed to negate the point I put forward, concentrating instead on carping on about 'tone' and 'style of response' ( neither of which are relevant to what we're discussing ).
IF there is a Yes vote. Scotland would therefore no longer be subject to Article 50 and would be negotiating with the EU directly as an independent entity. So all your assertions about Scotland being taken out of the EU by Westminster and quoting screeds of Article 50 text to emphasise your point... fall flat on their face right there. In fact, Scotland being part of Article 50 is one of the principle reasons why there is a high likelyhood of a second independence referendum within the next few years.It all seems so stupid it makes me want to give up.
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid ?0 -
No one seriously equates numbers that turn up for these sorts of rallies as evidence of anything much. I've never been to one. They are nice and all that, but the real work to be done is on the doorsteps.A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »There will be a rally in St George Square, Glasgow on Saturday 17th September to mark the second anniversary of the independence referendum - and to show support for "indyref2".
Support has been further garnered by use of social media, with Facebook group "Hope over fear" claiming the event will be a "well organised family friendly event with speakers, performers and entertainment for all to enjoy."
http://www.greenocktelegraph.co.uk/news/trendingacrossscotland/14742220.Second_anniversary_of_independence_referendum_set_to_be_marked_by_rally_in_George_Square/?ref=rl&lp=2
(Read some of those comments at the end to see some of the true feelings within Scotland.)
With a population of over 5 million, realistically it would take loads more to attend for "indyref2" to have any real chance of viability.It all seems so stupid it makes me want to give up.
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid ?0 -
Dumfries and Galloway went into the Union as part of Scotland. And it will leave as such. If down the line they decide to join the UK once again then they can go through the proper political processes like everyone else. It should only take them 100 years or so. 70 of which they'll spend just getting their own parliament first.A_Medium_Size_Jock wrote: »Another nail in the SNP's iScotland coffin?
A meeting of the full council on Tuesday in Dumfries & Galloway will be "calling for the local authority to seek Westminster approval to allow residents to vote for the region to either remain part of the UK or to leave if a second indy poll gets the go-ahead."
Dumfries & Galloway had by 65.7% majority voted to remain in the UK in 2014.
In the EU referendum the area had a 71.4% turnout with 53% voting to remain.
This has led D&G councillors to say:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/indy-fear-prompts-calls-dumfries-8832749
So for those saying that Scotland can not leave the EU against it's will, how can Scotland then propose independence against the will of parts of Scotland?
I guess they must be a little worried about the way things are going, which is understandable.It all seems so stupid it makes me want to give up.
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid ?0
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