📨 Have you signed up to the Forum's new Email Digest yet? Get a selection of trending threads sent straight to your inbox daily, weekly or monthly!

Pay off the Mortgage or top up my Pension pot?

2

Comments

  • jamesd
    jamesd Posts: 26,103 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    You rmortgage is cheap and you seem to have a decent pension so I'll say it's stocks and shares ISA time. The advantage of the ISA is that you have access to the full lump sum at any time, so it's good as a complement to the pension income. If you become a higher rate tax payer that would be the time to look at putting more money into the pension.

    If you're unfamiliar with stocks and shares ISAs take a look at these investments that can be held in one to give you some idea of the range available:

    30% BlackRock UK Absolute Alpha
    20% Cru Investment Portfolio
    20% Invesco Perpetual Monthly Income Plus
    20% Invesco Perpetual Income
    10% Neptune Global Equity

    The first three are quite stable and invest in different ways while the last two are one of the most popular UK funds and a fairly aggressive global fund. The proportions are selected so that it's unlikely you'd lose capital over a year or more, but at the expense of substantially reduced long term growth potential. Still likely to be more than 9% a year though.

    And that expectation of more than 9% a year is why it's likely to beat overpaying the mortgage.

    This is just a place to get started - it's not really adequate long term, just something that's a fairly safe way to start out and show the benefit of combining different types of investment with different properties.
  • JimmyTheWig
    JimmyTheWig Posts: 12,199 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    jamesd wrote: »
    I'll say it's stocks and shares ISA time. The advantage of the ISA is that you have access to the full lump sum at any time
    A brilliant post, jamesd. (Assuming the funds do what you say they will!)
    The only thing I'd disagree on is I'd say cash ISAs before stocks and shares.
    Because while you will have access to the full lump sum of a stocks and shares ISA at any time, the time you want the cash may be a bad time (e.g. bottom of a slump) for the stock market.
    I completely agree about the longer term aim, but think there's nothing better than having a pot of cash on hand.
  • dunstonh
    dunstonh Posts: 119,836 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    cash traditionally only just about keeps pace with inflation. So, it is fair to assume that you are not seeing any real growth with that money. Retirement provision is typically long term and using cash for long term planning can be quite wasteful.

    Cash is great for the short term, emergency fund and a bit of suprlus and the years you get closer to retirement but for 20-30 or 40 years it can actually become a greater risk than using a balanced spread of investments.
    I am an Independent Financial Adviser (IFA). The comments I make are just my opinion and are for discussion purposes only. They are not financial advice and you should not treat them as such. If you feel an area discussed may be relevant to you, then please seek advice from an Independent Financial Adviser local to you.
  • JimmyTheWig
    JimmyTheWig Posts: 12,199 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    dunstonh wrote: »
    cash traditionally only just about keeps pace with inflation. So, it is fair to assume that you are not seeing any real growth with that money. Retirement provision is typically long term and using cash for long term planning can be quite wasteful.

    Cash is great for the short term, emergency fund and a bit of suprlus and the years you get closer to retirement but for 20-30 or 40 years it can actually become a greater risk than using a balanced spread of investments.
    I agree, but one of the original options was paying off the mortgage quicker, which I don't think is a bad thing in principal.
    If that's an aim then with existing rates the money is better off in a cash ISA than against the mortgage, but if mortgage rates go up (and cash ISA rates don't) then the cash ISA money could pay a chunk off the mortgage. You couldn't necessarily say the same thing about a stocks and shares investment as the mortgage rates may go up within the next 5+ years.
  • meester
    meester Posts: 1,879 Forumite
    jamesd wrote: »
    You rmortgage is cheap and you seem to have a decent pension so I'll say it's stocks and shares ISA time. The advantage of the ISA is that you have access to the full lump sum at any time, so it's good as a complement to the pension income. If you become a higher rate tax payer that would be the time to look at putting more money into the pension.

    If you're unfamiliar with stocks and shares ISAs take a look at these investments that can be held in one to give you some idea of the range available:

    30% BlackRock UK Absolute Alpha
    20% Cru Investment Portfolio
    20% Invesco Perpetual Monthly Income Plus
    20% Invesco Perpetual Income
    10% Neptune Global Equity

    The first three are quite stable and invest in different ways while the last two are one of the most popular UK funds and a fairly aggressive global fund. The proportions are selected so that it's unlikely you'd lose capital over a year or more, but at the expense of substantially reduced long term growth potential. Still likely to be more than 9% a year though.

    And that expectation of more than 9% a year is why it's likely to beat overpaying the mortgage.

    I don't think you should assume 9% at all. Blackrock UK Absolute Alpha has outperformed that over 1 year, but with all the extra money this is bringing it seems unlikely to do so over 5-10 years. The CF fund is returning a far more plausible 7.61%, but again, only over 1 year.

    In theory the other funds should do better (higher risk means higher return), so you could perhaps assume 8% (though I doubt the FSA would accept this) per annum.

    That said, the base + 0.23% is a pretty low rate to be borrowing money. 5.23%. You have to gross that up (add on tax at 20%), which gives 6.54%.

    Although I would be very cautious about assuming a 9% return, my conclusion is the same - at 6.54% secured over 25 years, it is a no-brainer to, in effect, borrow to invest (given that your repayments are affordable, and you're never going to get any margin calls or anything unpleasant like that on the money you're borrowing).

    You should of course consider adjust your investment return for risk, i.e. an 8% return with 10% standard deviation is not as good as 8% with zero standard deviation. But I reckon you can beat your 6.54% risk-free rate of return.

    And as noted, the annual ISA allowance is lose-it-or-lose-it. So it is something for nothing in a way, because it provides you with lifetime return. Even though a cash ISA at 6.5% very slightly underperforms your effective mortgage rate of 6.54%, it is a better destination for your money, because the mortgage can be paid off at any time whereas the tax saving on the ISA (about £50/year forever) goes after the end of the year.

    There is an obvious problem with the cash ISA of course, in that even though the life-time tax shelter offsets the interest differential, it is still not going to outperform in the way that a share/fund ISA would. As Jimmy says, you do need to keep some cash. But there is a problem with cash ISAs - the money is very 'sticky' - withdrawing it is really reserved for situations of real financial trouble, because you can never put it back - you lose the tax relief.

    So there is little difference in terms of 'rainy day money' between either cash or share ISA (incidentally, half of the money that james mentions is in effect tax-free for someone in your situation for the forseeable future, because the gains come in the form of capital, which is tax-free up to £10k/year; even so, since you don't have enough spare cash to utilise anything outside the ISA, you are well advised to safeguard your ISA allowance by putting all of your investments inside it).

    Finally, one thing that has been rather shamefully overlooked in the replies so far is that you have a final salary pension!!! My father has one of these. He joined at the age of 43. He is putting in I think 15% of his salary (the maximum). By the time he retires he will have a pension worth about £1m, should you have to buy it on the open market. There is no way he could have achieved this through an ISA or private pension investment.

    You have to look at your pension scheme's rules and find out about the effect of making additional contributions. It's quite possibly the best place for your money - but in likelihood you won't be allowed to contribute that much money, so you would still have money left over for your ISA.

    Whatever you do, DON'T pay off your mortgage, as it's very cheap debt.
  • jamesd
    jamesd Posts: 26,103 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper
    JimmyTheWig, here's how the numbers work out, using last year for the two short termers, five years for monthly income (to reflect improving conditions for it) and three years for the last two (to penalise them for uncertainty by including a bad news year but not two years of good news):
    Fund		Return	%	Contribution	Period used
    Abs Alpha	12.01	30	3.6		1 year
    Cru Inv Port	7.61	20	1.5		1 year
    Invesco Monthly	10	20	2.0		5 year 
    Invesco Income	8.7	20	1.7		3 year
    Neptune Global	17.3	10	1.7		3 year
    Past return for periods used	10.6%
    

    Add some margin for volatility and 9% seems like a reasonable value. If it's a really bad year for the last two they could take it negative but they have to overcome the higher percentages and stable return of the first two to do it. Not impossible, though, and the chart shows how the volatilities differ and why so much is in the more stable ones (colors are red, blue, yellow, green, gray in fund order).

    Worth a look at how the first two did during bad times for the stock market. They have so far been very stable and not really vulnerable to drops inthe market, reducing the need to have cash around. Still need emergency cash and some other cash but if there's a big chunk in stable investments market timing is less of an issue.

    Meester, Absolute Alpha has been doing less well recently, perhaps due to a big cash influx. Was over 500 million two months ago, might even be over a billion by now. Still should do comparatively well in uncertain markets.

    Not sure how Cru Investment Portfolio will do because I'm not sure how near to long term performance the private equity proportion of the investment is yet. If that hasn't ramped up returns yet it could do significantly better.

    This isn't intended to be a mixture to buy and hold for five years. Just something to get started with given the range of outlooks for this year and a target of low risk of loss of capital over that timeframe. Something to make those who are uncertain about investing to feel momre comfortable with it.
  • roysterer
    roysterer Posts: 127 Forumite
    I find this a very interesting debate with very good pros and cons.
    Excuse me if this seems a daft question but:-

    Do you have to declare income from ISA investments be it Cash Isas' or SAS Isas' when you actually retire???
    The reason I am asking this question is that does the above income form part of your personal allowance for the purpose of income tax.
    Also does Isa income have to be declared if applying for any pension credit, or top-up payments or any other means tested benefit.
    I happen to believe that in future the basic state pension will be of little value (even compaired to today) and the majority of state pension will be means tested.
    So therefore do you consider ISAs' a better way of subsidising your lower pensionable income in retirement rather than having a larger private pension without any other additional income other than state pension????

    Based on the tax system being similar as todays in future!!

    sorry if I am confusing you!!!!!!!
  • JimmyTheWig
    JimmyTheWig Posts: 12,199 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    roysterer wrote: »
    Do you have to declare income from ISA investments be it Cash Isas' or SAS Isas' when you actually retire???
    For income tax purposes, certainly not. They're ISAs.

    For means tested income, I don't know. I could believe that any _income_ you get from them (e.g. annual interest) might be means tested. But if you've saved in ISAs for years to then spend them in retirement the bulk of what you are spending in retirement is the capital (i.e. the money in the account) rather than _new_ interest. So I doubt that this is a concern.

    The only thing that might be an issue is means tested capital. I.e. you don't ge benefit X if you have savings of more than Y.


    Which means that it is a good way to save for retirement.
    But remember that contributing to a pension plan is tax free at the time of contributing, while ISAs aren't.
  • Steppy
    Steppy Posts: 11 Forumite
    Hiya,

    Thanks for all the ideas... Penty to chew on there.

    For me I think a combination of saving and investments is the likely answer.

    My thougths are:

    1. Max out the Cash ISA - Build up a bit of cash for a rainy day fund.
    2. Think about starting up my old personal pension / research other options.
    3. Pay £175 in the Mortgage and £175 in to my personal pension per month.
    4. Buy £50 worth (Direct Debt) of Premium Bonds per month. If you're not in it then you can't win it..

    Extra bedtime reading:

    1. ISA Stocks and shares - Research the possibilities.
    2. How to ask my boss for a pay rise!

    Thanks all for your help.

    Cheers,

    Steppy
  • JimmyTheWig
    JimmyTheWig Posts: 12,199 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Combo Breaker
    Sounds like a decent enough plan, Steppy.

    I presume that you realise that premium bonds are a terrible way to save, but if that's what you want to do then fair enough. It's a lot better than spending £50 a month on lottery tickets!
This discussion has been closed.
Meet your Ambassadors

🚀 Getting Started

Hi new member!

Our Getting Started Guide will help you get the most out of the Forum

Categories

  • All Categories
  • 351.3K Banking & Borrowing
  • 253.2K Reduce Debt & Boost Income
  • 453.7K Spending & Discounts
  • 244.3K Work, Benefits & Business
  • 599.4K Mortgages, Homes & Bills
  • 177.1K Life & Family
  • 257.7K Travel & Transport
  • 1.5M Hobbies & Leisure
  • 16.2K Discuss & Feedback
  • 37.6K Read-Only Boards

Is this how you want to be seen?

We see you are using a default avatar. It takes only a few seconds to pick a picture.