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Debate House Prices


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The Mystery of Rising House Prices......

HAMISH_MCTAVISH
HAMISH_MCTAVISH Posts: 28,592 Forumite
Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Name Dropper Photogenic
edited 10 November 2009 at 7:08AM in Debate House Prices & the Economy
Tasty bull food all around today.

But it's not exactly the "mystery" the Indy suggests.... We've been pointing out many of these reasons for quite some time.
The immediate answer given by all those involved is "shortage of supply". Owners are just not putting their properties on the market, and those that are are often asking unrealistically high prices, though the chill of recession has jolted more into narrowing the gap between what they ask for (as monitored by Rightmove) and what they settle for (as recorded by the Nationwide, Halifax and the Land Registry).

This is not just a question of sellers being in denial about negative or inadequate equity, though there is a psychological reluctance on the part of sellers to accept a loss. That lack of equity in many homes has a more concrete effect – it means that moving is difficult at a time when lenders are imposing more demanding terms, such as lower loan-to-equity ratios and more conservative multiples of household income. New rules from the Financial Services Authority that tighten up rules for self-certified and other unconventional customers will exacerbate this trend.

Plainly, banks are only really willing to take on the best credit risks: their precarious balance sheets and losses prevent them from shouldering risks that would have been routine three or four years ago. So, perversely, the lack of mortgage finance has actually pushed prices higher by artificially constricting supply.

Second, the waves of repossessions during the property slump of the early 1990s hasn't materialised, and seems to be another perverse product of the credit crunch. Again, such is the fragile state of many bank and building society balance sheets that few want to crystallise losses by foreclosure. One of the reasons why the bad debts being reported by the banks aren't as high as they might be is because they can't afford any more write-offs – so they just let the arrears run. Possibly also because of political pressure, lenders are exercising extreme leniency with wayward mortgage holders. This unprecedented forbearance is blocking another source of ready supply – auction sales from distressed sellers.

Third, there are signs of increased demand. Confidence is better, after the apocalyptic mood of much of the past year or so. And there are those out there who are cash-rich. Very cash-rich. At one end, Russian oligarchs and other wealthy foreigners and investment funds are attracted by Britain's real-estate double whammy – depressed values plus a sharply depreciated pound adds up, in crude terms, to a 40 per cent discount on peak 2007 prices. Tempting, for some, including speculators who buy some of the best real estate in the capital and allow it to crumble or be squatted.

Theres also some morsels for the bears..... It's quite a balanced article.

Like....
Prices seem back on their long-term trend level now, but there is every reason to think an undershoot may also be possible, as in the past.

and....
Economists are almost unanimous that the bottom of the market has not yet been reached; then again, only a couple of years ago they told us that prices would be flat in 2008 before resuming their upward march this year ...

The property conundrum remains unsolved.

And a few more in the article, found here....
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/the-mystery-of-the-rising-house-prices-1817811.html
“The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.

Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”

-- President John F. Kennedy”
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Comments

  • ruggedtoast
    ruggedtoast Posts: 9,819 Forumite
    Three threads in a row. Get a life.
  • System
    System Posts: 178,376 Community Admin
    10,000 Posts Photogenic Name Dropper
    Three threads in a row. Get a life.

    Great counter argument well done.

    Makes me miss ad44downey.
    This is a system account and does not represent a real person. To contact the Forum Team email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
  • Joeskeppi wrote: »
    Great counter argument well done.

    Makes me miss ad44downey.

    It's not a counter argument, because he doesn't have a counter argument :confused:

    Possibly as Hammish kept it balanced by pointing out the sections from both sides of the fence

    Certainly hamish's post was more productive and informative than ruggedtoasts.
    :wall:
    What we've got here is....... failure to communicate.
    Some men you just can't reach.
    :wall:
  • zappahey
    zappahey Posts: 2,252 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    edited 10 November 2009 at 12:34PM
    So, perversely, the lack of mortgage finance has actually pushed prices higher by artificially constricting supply.

    So the question of "Where's the money coming from?" actually helps to explain the price rises.
    What goes around - comes around
  • zappahey wrote: »
    So the question of "Where's the money coming from?" actually helps to explain the price rises.

    :beer:

    Indeed.

    Perhaps those who so loudly advocated restricted lending should have first researched the "law of unintended consequences"...
    “The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie – deliberate, contrived, and dishonest – but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic.

    Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.”

    -- President John F. Kennedy”
  • nembot
    nembot Posts: 1,234 Forumite
    Hardly mystery to be perfectly honest...

    We should just put out hands together and congratulate the BOE with it's quantative easing and low interest rates, soon sterling will be worthless, but hey UK house prices are rising!

    Let's not forget the other pillars of truth, such as the major lenders and anyone with any vested interest (that includes you Hamish) telling us that everything is "shiny" when it's clearly not.

    But what the heck, we can carry on regardless cherry picking positive articles and pretend all the bad things are happening to people who "probably deserve it" and should "get skilled up!" if they lose their job.

    Words fail me...
  • Graham_Devon
    Graham_Devon Posts: 58,560 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 10,000 Posts Combo Breaker
    Petrol is getting more expensive too.

    Diesel was 1.09p in Tesco's today. Couple of weeks ago it was 1.04p.

    I nearly wet myself through sheer excitement that I was handing over more cash for the same thing.
  • nembot
    nembot Posts: 1,234 Forumite
    Petrol is getting more expensive too.

    Diesel was 1.09p in Tesco's today. Couple of weeks ago it was 1.04p.

    I nearly wet myself through sheer excitement that I was handing over more cash for the same thing.

    You've had a 5% pay rise in those two weeks aintcha, what's the problem?

    :)
  • Cannon_Fodder
    Cannon_Fodder Posts: 3,980 Forumite
    edited 10 November 2009 at 8:50PM
    Maybe, as usual, I haven't thought this through, but what the heck...

    If sellers are not putting their houses on the market, because of restricted lending/lack of equity/poor deals at high LTV/poor credit history, etc etc...then supply is restricted - which Hamish and the article attribute house price rises to...have I got that right?

    But, if they are not selling, then neither are they trying to buy, so doesn't that correspondingly restrict demand...and shouldn't the two halves of the same non-transaction to a large degree cancel themselves out...??

    There will be some let-to-buy and consent to let, where there is no sale but a purchase, to not make it an exact trade-off, but there are also accidental landlords going into rental themselves, so its not all the consent/let people. And there are still all the others who are just sitting tight...neither seller nor buyer.


    I'd agree with the cash heavy buyer point, from oligarchs, thru bankers bonuses to STRs. And wonder at the regionality of the effects of recession. London over-heating, already?

    Plus, I'd attribute it more to the sheer volume of people who never bought throughout 2008, plus parts of 2007 and 2009 on either side. Using HMRC figures, http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/stats/survey_of_prop/val-40000-or-above.pdf , from a peak in mid-2007 around 160k transactions, we went to a trough of 41k. For 21 months transactions have been under 100k. At least 30k (as some months were obviously not at peak levels) per month less than 'normal'...up to 60k at times. Say 45k average.

    ...in the last 6 months transactions have crept thru 60, 70, to 80k. But the previous 15 months (x 45k) accumulated plenty of people for there still to be plenty of decent deposit, good credit types, who had enough of waiting and decide a 20%ish drop was enough - or that the right house came along for.

    But the question remains, for how much longer can this continue?

    When the stamp duty holiday ends, VAT returns to normal (or is increased), 6 month limit on arrears kicks in, public sector gets hit, stimuli end, QE reverses, Govt changes and wants to get the pain out of the way before it tries for re-election, etc etc....there's a painful period coming, surely?
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