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  • FIRST POST
    • oranabana
    • By oranabana 4th Apr 08, 7:20 PM
    • 240Posts
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    oranabana
    HELP!! Nationwide foreign transaction (charged twice!!!)
    • #1
    • 4th Apr 08, 7:20 PM
    HELP!! Nationwide foreign transaction (charged twice!!!) 4th Apr 08 at 7:20 PM
    in desperate need of some help here. If anyone can advise us where to go with this, we would really appreciate.

    In Dec the account holder used his Debit Visa card from Nationwide in Korea to make a cash withdrawal (since foreign withdrawals do not attract a fee with Nationwide). The first such withdrawal however was unsuccessfull with the card returned, but without cash or receipt. He than made another withdrawal a few hours later at another machine in the same location, and the cash was withdrawn successfully.

    He immediately contacted Nationwide by contact form on their website, to inform them of a possible fraudulent operation and received an acknowledgement to that effect, stating it would be investigated. A week later, after requesting one of the now twice debited amount (showing on the online statements) to be credited back to his account, the bank informed him they will further investigate and debited one amount back.

    In Feb the bank has contacted him by letter, containing what appears to be copies of the Visa Transaction Research Service, saying 'that the withdrawal was successful with the amount of £XXX.XX being dispensed on XX Dec at XX:XX local time'.

    When contacting the Nationwide about this not being correct, they offered to look into this and to investigate the other transaction and credited the account with said sum 'as a measure of goodwill'.

    He has now received the outcome of the second investigation, which is identical in result, and is being advised again that Nationwide will debit the said amount in the next 7 days.

    I find this unbelievable and am trying to help him, but my background is rather limited when it comes to banking issues. Nationwide have included a copy of what appears to be a website called NTMS/NICE with a URL of http://nws.nicemoney.com/index.html which shows the card number and the amount. Apart from the numbers its all in Korean so does not mean much to us.

    Further have they included copies from the Visa Transaction Research Service, which is three pages long and covers an awfull lot of numbers and codes, such as (these are the headings only):

    General Transaction Data
    CVV Transaction Data
    PS2000 Transaction Data
    Credit Transaction Data
    Multi-Currency Data

    Does he need a laywer or is there another way to get to bank to live up to the fact that there was an ATM that did not work as advertised. Having been to Korea myself, I am aware of the fact that not all machines dispense cash to foreign cards (despite showing the VISA logo).

    The problem will be how to proof that no cash was ever dispensed in the first transaction. It has indeed happened to myself in the UK, but I never seen an amount being debited for such a malfunction.

    If anyone can help us, it would be much appreciated.
    Thanks
    Last edited by oranabana; 04-04-2008 at 7:25 PM. Reason: grammar
Page 1
    • MarkyMarkD
    • By MarkyMarkD 4th Apr 08, 7:32 PM
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    MarkyMarkD
    • #2
    • 4th Apr 08, 7:32 PM
    • #2
    • 4th Apr 08, 7:32 PM
    If push comes to shove, the machine owner should be able to produce a reconciliation report showing that they'd checked the amount of money which had actually left the machine tallied with the amount claimed to have been dispensed.

    That would clearly show up any discrepancies.

    But, what amount are you talking about? Talking about lawyers sounds way OTT.
    • oranabana
    • By oranabana 4th Apr 08, 7:47 PM
    • 240 Posts
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    oranabana
    • #3
    • 4th Apr 08, 7:47 PM
    • #3
    • 4th Apr 08, 7:47 PM
    MarkyMark, the amount we are talking about here is 20% of his monthly income, or half what he paid for the flight there.
    How do you think we should proceed to get the bank to look at the ATM tally?! I could possible get a Korean friend in the UK to contact them - mmmh. So far we have sent an email to the Korean bank, but are awaiting a reply.

    thanks for the reply though!
    • MarkyMarkD
    • By MarkyMarkD 4th Apr 08, 8:18 PM
    • 9,795 Posts
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    MarkyMarkD
    • #4
    • 4th Apr 08, 8:18 PM
    • #4
    • 4th Apr 08, 8:18 PM
    I doubt that you will get the Korean bank to even communicate with you directly. Your friend's contractual relationship is with his bank, Nationwide, not with the Korean bank.

    It's Nationwide's job to investigate (as they've sort of done, so far) and to ascertain who they believe.

    If (as appears to be the case) they believe the Korean bank, there is nothing much you can do apart from to escalate the complaint within Nationwide and then take it to the FOS if you get no joy.
    • oranabana
    • By oranabana 5th Apr 08, 2:41 AM
    • 240 Posts
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    oranabana
    • #5
    • 5th Apr 08, 2:41 AM
    • #5
    • 5th Apr 08, 2:41 AM
    the only reason we emailed the Korean bank, is to establish if they have a video camera on the ATM, as that should be able to show that no cash was dispensed. As Korea is quite good a customer service we have some hope on getting a reply, but I hear what you saying.

    Has anyone else had any experience in getting their ATM discrepancy resolved?!
    • MarkyMarkD
    • By MarkyMarkD 5th Apr 08, 8:44 PM
    • 9,795 Posts
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    MarkyMarkD
    • #6
    • 5th Apr 08, 8:44 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Apr 08, 8:44 PM
    Even if a camera is fitted on the ATM, its point is to show the person withdrawing the money, not the money itself. So it won't necessarily show anything useful IMHO.

    The Korean Bank has no way of knowing that you are who you claim you are, so it's unlikely (to me) that they'll tell you anything. In this country, another bank certainly wouldn't.
    • Biggles
    • By Biggles 5th Apr 08, 10:56 PM
    • 7,611 Posts
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    Biggles
    • #7
    • 5th Apr 08, 10:56 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Apr 08, 10:56 PM
    I wonder why he immediately assumed the first (failed) transaction was fraudulent? I have had many failed transactions (as have you, as you say), for one reason or another, and have never thought that fraud may have been involved.

    You still haven't said how much was involved but if, as you infer, it was a sizeable amount, surely any second withdrawal the same day would have been rejected, as 300 is the daily maximum?
    • MarkyMarkD
    • By MarkyMarkD 5th Apr 08, 11:07 PM
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    MarkyMarkD
    • #8
    • 5th Apr 08, 11:07 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Apr 08, 11:07 PM
    The whole story is a bit odd.

    As Biggles states, it shouldn't be possible to withdraw two substantial amounts on the same day because of the daily withdrawal limit.

    And alleging fraud when what happened was most likely to merely be an accounting error is a bit OTT.

    Rather like suggesting the involvement of lawyers was a bit OTT.

    I would appreciate the original poster actually stating the amount of the two transactions so we don't have to keep guessing.
    • oranabana
    • By oranabana 7th Apr 08, 12:17 PM
    • 240 Posts
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    oranabana
    • #9
    • 7th Apr 08, 12:17 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Apr 08, 12:17 PM
    the amount is just under GBP 150.00, which would mean that it should well be possible to withdraw two lots in one day. On the other hand I am not sure if Nationwide does limit it, or if its the foreign bank?!

    The word fraudulent was possibly not the correct wording (I am just the intermediary here, but I have asked again, and that was just the wording he used, in the first contact with Nationwide, when the two amounts appeared on the online statement).

    Judging what you guys are saying, this is a lost cause..?! huh
    • oranabana
    • By oranabana 7th Apr 08, 12:25 PM
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    oranabana
    The Korean Bank has no way of knowing that you are who you claim you are
    Originally posted by MarkyMarkD
    we have included the relevant transaction data (as per copy fro Nationwide) including the card No, Name, date/time and amount, so I would imagine if they interested in sorting this out, they certrainly have something to go on
    • missile
    • By missile 7th Apr 08, 12:28 PM
    • 10,163 Posts
    • 5,197 Thanks
    missile
    Has anyone else had any experience in getting their ATM discrepancy resolved?!
    Originally posted by oranabana
    When travelling through France, I used my CAM debit card in an ATM machine and got less cash than shown on the statement. I went into my branch and made a statement and filled in a form. Not very hopeful but to my astonishment, the missing money was credited to my account two weeks later.
    "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." ~ Mahatma Gandhi
    Ride hard or stay home
    • missile
    • By missile 7th Apr 08, 12:30 PM
    • 10,163 Posts
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    missile
    the amount is just under GBP 150.00, which would mean that it should well be possible to withdraw two lots in one day. On the other hand I am not sure if Nationwide does limit it, or if its the foreign bank?!
    Originally posted by oranabana
    It is Nationwide who restrict it to 300.
    "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." ~ Mahatma Gandhi
    Ride hard or stay home
    • oranabana
    • By oranabana 7th Apr 08, 12:35 PM
    • 240 Posts
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    oranabana
    thanks missile, I think he has done that, but will check.
    and - does anyone know the format of email addresses at the Nationwide?!
    • missile
    • By missile 7th Apr 08, 12:42 PM
    • 10,163 Posts
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    missile
    The format of email addresses at Nationwide is phishing@nationwide.co.uk I contact Nationwide via online banking and have always received a prompt reply.

    You could phone 08457 30 20 10 or 01793 656789 and ask for an e mail contact
    "A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." ~ Mahatma Gandhi
    Ride hard or stay home
    • oranabana
    • By oranabana 7th Apr 08, 4:35 PM
    • 240 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    oranabana
    Hi, thanks, we have a name for the person from the Visa Transaction section (the ones in charge of that case). However we like to email the person directly (its easier to have things in writing, leaving a papertrail).

    He has now arranged an appointment with a Nationwide branch manager in a few days and has re-submitted the ATM discrepancy form.
    • oranabana
    • By oranabana 7th Apr 08, 4:43 PM
    • 240 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    oranabana
    Hi, thanks, we have a name for the person from the Visa Transaction section (the ones in charge of that case). However we like to email the person directly (its easier to have things in writing, leaving a papertrail).

    He has now arranged an appointment with a Nationwide branch manager in a few days and has re-submitted the ATM discrepancy form.
    • Biggles
    • By Biggles 7th Apr 08, 5:44 PM
    • 7,611 Posts
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    Biggles
    the amount is just under GBP 150.00, which would mean that it should well be possible to withdraw two lots in one day. On the other hand I am not sure if Nationwide does limit it, or if its the foreign bank?!

    The word fraudulent was possibly not the correct wording (I am just the intermediary here, but I have asked again, and that was just the wording he used, in the first contact with Nationwide, when the two amounts appeared on the online statement).

    Judging what you guys are saying, this is a lost cause..?! huh
    Originally posted by oranabana
    It was just your post #4 that made me think it was £2-300 (20% of a month's salary/half the flight cost).

    It wasn't so much the use of the word 'fraudulent' but just that I read post #1 to say that he reported it to Nationwide 'immediately', without mentioning that he had already seen it on his statement. If he had, that would explain it.

    But no, if he's genuine, it shouldn't be a lost cause, he should carry on trying.
    Last edited by Biggles; 07-04-2008 at 5:48 PM.
    • oranabana
    • By oranabana 7th Jan 09, 11:07 PM
    • 240 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    oranabana
    some update
    Hi all, just to keep you updated. The bank has finally decided - after getting the ombudsman involved - that there is no case and they will not refund any money. My friend has then written a reply to the ombudsman mentioning that there is a witness who he has been in touch, which is willing to testify in a legal preceeding.
    Nationwide has now in response offered to settle the dispute with a one of payment, which the ombudsman have provided a statement to him, whcih would need signing.

    I am thinking that the bank has finally accepted that they are at fault (even if indirectly as it was VISA network), and hence think he should ask for some form of compensation or at the very least interest for the money - it was over a year now when this happened.

    How would one calculate the interest and would you ask for compensation, due to time spent/wasted?

    Thanks
    • prudentsaving42
    • By prudentsaving42 7th Jan 09, 11:26 PM
    • 81 Posts
    • 35 Thanks
    prudentsaving42
    Hi all, just to keep you updated. The bank has finally decided - after getting the ombudsman involved - that there is no case and they will not refund any money. My friend has then written a reply to the ombudsman mentioning that there is a witness who he has been in touch, which is willing to testify in a legal preceeding.
    Nationwide has now in response offered to settle the dispute with a one of payment, which the ombudsman have provided a statement to him, whcih would need signing.

    I am thinking that the bank has finally accepted that they are at fault (even if indirectly as it was VISA network), and hence think he should ask for some form of compensation or at the very least interest for the money - it was over a year now when this happened.

    How would one calculate the interest and would you ask for compensation, due to time spent/wasted?

    Thanks
    Originally posted by oranabana
    The interest would probably be about a tenner, but is it worth further hassle?:rolleyes:
    • oranabana
    • By oranabana 8th Jan 09, 11:11 PM
    • 240 Posts
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    oranabana
    .. so he should take the money and accept that mistakes happen?
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