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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Archna
    • By MSE Archna 18th Mar 08, 11:39 AM
    • 1,874Posts
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    MSE Archna
    TV Licence article Discussion
    • #1
    • 18th Mar 08, 11:39 AM
    TV Licence article Discussion 18th Mar 08 at 11:39 AM


    This thread is specifically to discuss the the


    To discuss or ask a question about this article: click reply
    Last edited by MSE Researcher; 14-06-2010 at 4:08 PM.
    Report inappropriate posts: forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com




Page 178
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 13th Jan 20, 8:29 AM
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    Cornucopia
    What was the image by the way? Not showing for me / broken link or whatever.
    Originally posted by Ego_Shredder
    A video camera.

    Bedsit Bob is suggesting that people film (or try to film) TVL staff when they arrive on their premises. This is totally legal and does seem to have a deterrent effect on them for reasons that are not totally clear (to me, anyway).
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

    Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Mistral001
    • By Mistral001 13th Jan 20, 4:39 PM
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    Mistral001
    We're not suggesting ignoring summonses, just the letters and doorstep callers.

    Obviously you shouldn't ignore a summons, but Threat-O-Grams (aka the monthly letters) and doorstep callers can be safely ignored.
    Originally posted by Bedsit Bob
    However you did say that you wrote "not known at this address" on the TV Licensing letters and sent them back. That is more than "ignoring". That is a porky. Do that with any government authority such as HMRC or Immigration and you could find yourself in trouble. And TV Licensing is actually such an authority.

    PS. sorry it was not you that said you wrote "not known at this address" that was 1005922.
    Last edited by Mistral001; 13-01-2020 at 5:25 PM.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 13th Jan 20, 4:53 PM
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    Cornucopia
    However you did say that you wrote "not known at this address" on the TV Licensing letters and sent them back. That is more than "ignoring". That is a porky. Do that with any government authority such as HMRC or Immigration and you could find yourself in trouble. And TV Licensing is actually such an authority.

    PS. sorry it was not you that said "not known at this address" that but someone else.
    Originally posted by Mistral001
    The thing is that TV Licensing is NOT such an authority.

    Fair enough that you don't know that, but it is (sadly) a fact that there is a lot of baggage attached to the TV Licensing brand (because that's all it is). A big part of that is them (the BBC and its outsourcers) creating the misleading impression of authority where little or none exists.

    TVL certainly require cautious handling, but fundamentally it wouldn't be an offence to ignore them or lie to them. (Though under certain circumstances they might choose to exploit non-cooperation in legal action for either of the two offences that they do prosecute).
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 13-01-2020 at 5:05 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

    Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Mistral001
    • By Mistral001 13th Jan 20, 5:22 PM
    • 4,253 Posts
    • 3,279 Thanks
    Mistral001
    The thing is that TV Licensing is NOT such an authority. Fair enough that you don't know that, but it is (sadly) a fact that there is a lot of baggage attached to the TV Licensing brand (because that's all it is). A big part of that is them (the BBC and its outsourcers) creating the misleading impression of authority where little or none exists.
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    An outsourcer or any company can send out letters. They can call at your house. They can even gather evidence, just like a private detective does, but they cannot issue summons's to appear in the criminal courts. If TV Licensing does not do this, who does?
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 13th Jan 20, 6:01 PM
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    Cornucopia
    An outsourcer or any company can send out letters. They can even gather evidence, just like a private detective does, but they cannot issue summons's to appear in the criminal courts. If TV Licensing does not do this, who does?
    Originally posted by Mistral001
    TV Licensing is a brand name of the BBC. It says exactly that in the definition Nick_C posted above. The BBC has created an enforcement operation, branded it "TV Licensing" and resourced it with outsourcers. The legal status of "TV Licensing" is similar to "Doctor Who", as I understand it.

    Yes, there are various things that the outsourcer companies can do (though I would suggest that what TVL does in terms of letters and "visits" goes way beyond what a company would normally do). The BBC is a public authority and that means that TV Licensing AND its outsourcers are also bound by the Human Rights Act, and that's another big can of worms.

    The question of "who prosecutes" is an interesting one. AFAIK, the Courts accept the use of the trade mark "TV Licensing" in prosecutions. The staff involved in presenting cases are Capita employees. I would have thought that was all a bit messy, but IANAL.

    None of that, though, detracts from what we've previously said: TV Licensing is not a statutory authority and there is no legal reason why people should not ignore them (except in the very rare situation where they have a warrant).
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 13-01-2020 at 6:52 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

    Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Watchkeeper
    • By Watchkeeper 13th Jan 20, 7:08 PM
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    Watchkeeper
    The question of "who prosecutes" is an interesting one. AFAIK, the Courts accept the use of the pseudonym "TV Licensing" in prosecutions. The staff involved in presenting cases are Capita employees. I would have thought that was a bit messy, but IANAL.
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    Indeed. In response to a Freedom of Information request submitted by Peter Jones of the TV Licensing Blog just over 3 years ago, the BBC released a redacted (natch!) copy of the "Capita TV Licensing Court Presenters' Manual" under their reference number RFI2017173.

    Interestingly, it states in Section 13.6:

    Request Permission to Prosecute.
    The Court Presenter must seek the authority of the Court to prosecute. (Schedule 3 Section 1(2)(b) of the Legal Services Act 2007) It is an offence to prosecute without authority.

    The Court Presenter should also have available their TVL Identity Card, and the letter of authority signed by Director of Field Ops authorising them to Prosecute TVL cases.
    Capita's "Court Presenters" are lay people with no automatic right of audience. There are videos on a certain sharing site in which an enthusiastic citizen journalist confronts "Court Presenters" outside the court building.

    PS At the post preview stage I was informed "as a new user you are not allowed to post with links" (I linked to the relevant "What Do They Know" Website page). Since I joined MSE in July 2012 I'm wondering when exactly I cease to be a "new user".
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 13th Jan 20, 7:14 PM
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    • 17,610 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    PS At the post preview stage I was informed "as a new user you are not allowed to post with links" (I linked to the relevant "What Do They Know" Website page). Since I joined MSE in July 2012 I'm wondering when exactly I cease to be a "new user".
    Originally posted by Watchkeeper
    The devil is, as always, in the detail: I believe that you need to have made 50 posts before you are considered by the Forum software not to be a "Newbie".

    Here's the link for anyone who wants to have a look: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/capita_tv_licensing_court_presen

    I like the fact that there is an error in the very first paragraph (1.0). It states "five" sources for British law, and then proceeds to list 6 of them.

    ...Interestingly, it states in Section 13.6:...
    Thanks for that. I'm getting to the stage with all of this where I've been through so much detailed info that I'm beginning to forget some of it.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 13-01-2020 at 7:22 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

    Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Watchkeeper
    • By Watchkeeper 13th Jan 20, 7:29 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    Watchkeeper
    I'm getting to the stage with all of this where I've been through so much detailed info that I'm beginning to forget some of it.
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    I know I have a bad memory, but I can't remember whether it was always this bad.
    • Ego_Shredder
    • By Ego_Shredder 14th Jan 20, 9:01 PM
    • 56 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    Ego_Shredder
    A video camera.

    Bedsit Bob is suggesting that people film (or try to film) TVL staff when they arrive on their premises. This is totally legal and does seem to have a deterrent effect on them for reasons that are not totally clear (to me, anyway).
    Originally posted by Cornucopia

    Thanks. I have been sent the threatening letters since last July I think, and possibly had my first visit last week when I heard loud knocking at the front door. When I got out of bed and peeked through the curtains, I saw a man sat in a car further down the road, facing in my direction wearing a high visibility yellow vest. He drove off shortly afterwards.
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 14th Jan 20, 9:58 PM
    • 14,022 Posts
    • 17,610 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    Thanks. I have been sent the threatening letters since last July I think, and possibly had my first visit last week when I heard loud knocking at the front door. When I got out of bed and peeked through the curtains, I saw a man sat in a car further down the road, facing in my direction wearing a high visibility yellow vest. He drove off shortly afterwards.
    Originally posted by Ego_Shredder
    Based on other people's accounts, that sounds like it could have been TV Licensing.
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

    Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 15th Jan 20, 8:26 PM
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    Bedsit Bob
    And TV Licensing is actually such an authority.
    Originally posted by Mistral001
    No it's not. It is not illegal to lie to a Crapita employee.
    1984 WAS NOT AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - 1462-50

    You can't be a Christian AND a Socialist.
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 15th Jan 20, 8:36 PM
    • 10,709 Posts
    • 57,548 Thanks
    Bedsit Bob
    TV Licensing is not a statutory authority and there is no legal reason why people should not ignore them (except in the very rare situation where they have a warrant).
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    Indeed, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport confirmed, that you are entitled to ignore them.

    Mr. Holloway: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport whether those who do not have a television set are required to inform Television Licensing that they do not require a TV licence.

    Mr. Woodward: A television licence is required to install or use a television receiver, as defined in regulations made by the Secretary of State, rather than a television set. Members of the public who do not require a television licence are under no obligation to inform TV Licensing of the fact.
    by Hansard
    1984 WAS NOT AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - 1462-50

    You can't be a Christian AND a Socialist.
    • jkility
    • By jkility 16th Jan 20, 7:44 PM
    • 78 Posts
    • 375 Thanks
    jkility
    Good evening all,


    We completed on our property on 9th January.


    I've been the property today to check for post etc to find a lovely letter from TV licensing stating

    Official notice: investigation opened
    they go on to state
    We have asked you to contact us several times, but you have not responded


    Funnily enough, the property has been empty for atleast a year and the letter box has been nailed shut .

    We're not planning on moving in for atleast a week yet, what do you recommend?


    The letter: https://ibb.co/tHdbJS7
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 16th Jan 20, 9:07 PM
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    Cornucopia
    That's one of their standard letters, complete with misleading weasel words.

    "Investigation opened" - they may have set your file to "under investigation", but otherwise pretty meaningless.

    "We have asked you to contact us several times, but you have not responded" - as Bedsit Bob has shown above, there's no obligation for you to contact them and they shouldn't be implying otherwise.

    The advice is generally the same unless there are special circumstances like vulnerable members of the household: you are free to ignore them (both the letters and any routine visits) and that's probably the best option. If you want to permanently see them off and you are prepared to invest some time and effort now to do that, then there are various legal options you can use.

    Disclaimer: IANAL and any suggestions are made in good faith, but can only be general observations based on comments made previously by the BBC and other relevant authorities. Any suggestions or discussion is for the benefit of people who do not need a TV Licence.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 16-01-2020 at 9:16 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

    Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • cw18
    • By cw18 16th Jan 20, 9:15 PM
    • 8,099 Posts
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    cw18
    Funnily enough, the property has been empty for atleast a year and the letter box has been nailed shut .
    Originally posted by jkility
    But they've probably written out. The delivery staff who've been unable to deliver them have hopefully done as I do, and marked them undeliverable due to no access before returning them to sender.

    However, I have NO idea what the goons do with them once they get them back. They clearly don't take the address off the database for generating these letters (even for a short time), as there's normally another one turns up in a month or so for the same 'no access' property.
    Cheryl
    • jkility
    • By jkility 16th Jan 20, 9:24 PM
    • 78 Posts
    • 375 Thanks
    jkility
    But they've probably written out. The delivery staff who've been unable to deliver them have hopefully done as I do, and marked them undeliverable due to no access before returning them to sender.

    However, I have NO idea what the goons do with them once they get them back. They clearly don't take the address off the database for generating these letters (even for a short time), as there's normally another one turns up in a month or so for the same 'no access' property.
    Originally posted by cw18

    There's still a 'For Sale' banner outside the property so kind of gives it away too!
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