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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Archna
    • By MSE Archna 18th Mar 08, 11:39 AM
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    MSE Archna
    TV Licence article Discussion
    • #1
    • 18th Mar 08, 11:39 AM
    TV Licence article Discussion 18th Mar 08 at 11:39 AM


    This thread is specifically to discuss the the


    To discuss or ask a question about this article: click reply
    Last edited by MSE Researcher; 14-06-2010 at 4:08 PM.
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Page 143
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 3rd Oct 18, 7:38 PM
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    Cornucopia
    If the BBC went encrypted, then all licence holders would need a viewing card and where would this viewing card go? They'd need a new box.

    Unlocking the encryption with you TVL reference would be open to abuse e.g. one person pays for a licence but then shares it with family and friends to get access.
    Originally posted by LeeUK
    Personally, I think that both of these issues are resolvable - assuming that there was good will from both the BBC and Government (which I think is, overall, the greater barrier).

    There's also the small matter that the Freeview spec was manipulated by the BBC (under Greg Dyke) to remove the Card Slot that had previously been mandatory. Dyke is clear that this was a deliberate move to make a subsequent move of the BBC to subscription much harder. Nevertheless, most modern TVs have card slots, and this could be the route to avoid the need for an additional "Beeb Box". Overall, I'd be surprised if any more than a small minority of households did not already have the means to receive an encrypted BBC using their existing equipment, although recording might be an issue.

    The other "big picture" solution would be to go with full encryption on those platforms that readily support it, and have a transitional (or permanent) BBC1 service with ads on Freeview. 10 minute filler programs could be added to the subscription version 3 or 4 times a day to achieve compatibility in the schedules. Personally, I very much favour this solution as it would enable individual households to make the choice for themselves.

    The issue of Licence tokens has a variety of potential solutions. The basic principle is that a LF-payer would be allowed a quota of access accounts per Licence. Maybe that quota could start low (say, 4 concurrent devices) and could be increased upon request. There would never be a possibility of one Licence being shared by thousands of users - that would be fundamentally and unnecessarily bad design.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 03-10-2018 at 7:41 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
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    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 3rd Oct 18, 7:58 PM
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    Cornucopia
    They do that already. If an address doesn't have a TV licence, then by default, they think you're watching broadcast TV. Hence the endless stream of harassing letters claiming to be "investigating" a criminal offence.
    Originally posted by FreeBear
    I should say (and I do not say it lightly) that I believe that the BBC's approach is fundamentally unlawful. In particular, a public authority is forbidden from interfering with the privacy (at home) of members of the public without suitable authority in law. That authority must be more than simply sitting in the bottom of a disused filing cabinet - it must be published, and the rules applying to citizens must be clear and understandable (amongst other things).

    Based on what I know of BBC-TV Licensing, there are two issues: 1) that they do not have authority in law, and 2) that they do not publish the authority in law that they claim they have.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
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    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • FreeBear
    • By FreeBear 3rd Oct 18, 11:59 PM
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    FreeBear
    Based on what I know of BBC-TV Licensing, there are two issues: 1) that they do not have authority in law, and 2) that they do not publish the authority in law that they claim they have.
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    If they did have the legal authority to investigate breaches of the licencing laws, then they would have to conduct themselves to the same standards as the police. So if no evidence of wrong doing was found, then that would be the end of the "investigation". None of this three month cycle of "investigation started", "if you are found guilty, penalty of..." and so on.

    Capita, operating under the trading name of TV Licencing (owned by the BBC), is openly engaged in harassment - This is not going to stop unless sufficient numbers of people sue both parties through the courts.
    Her courage will change the world.

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    • radoslaff
    • By radoslaff 4th Oct 18, 4:24 PM
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    radoslaff
    The motherf...s keep harassing me for years. I moved to the UK 2.5 years ago and ever since I haven't watched a single second of live TV transmittal and I've never had a TV set. So after being harassed by them for about six months I sent them a declaration with these facts and they were supposed to leave me alone for 2 years (according to their letter). A couple of months later it all started again. So I started to bin their letters and whenever somebody knocked on my door I just sent them away. Recently I moved into a new house and the funny thing is that there are THREE satellite dishes on the roof of this house that I inherited from the previous owners and the first TVL letter already went to the bin. I'm waiting for them to knock on my door any moment so I can have some fun. No matter what I say or do I can't afford to sue them in court myself but I would certainly join if there was a class action against them. What the do is extortionate.
    The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 4th Oct 18, 4:44 PM
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    Cornucopia
    One of the pernicious things about BBC-TV Licensing is that they conduct themselves as if citizens are powerless against them.

    But that isn't true.

    There are a variety of legal gambits that can be used against them to achieve different effects, and with different pros and cons involved. The only real question is which to choose, if any, on the basis that even taking time out of your day to deal with them seems wrong.

    I am currently in the situation where, having made a number of observations about PACE non-compliance, they have banned TV Licensing from contacting me. This seems to be an indefinite ban.

    Another person I am aware of submitted a schedule of charges to TVL based on the reasonable costs of dealing with their nonsense, and when they persisted in annoying him, he submitted an invoice, and when they didn't pay, successfully sued them under the Small Claims Process. They no longer bother him.

    So there are things that can be done, short of an expensive direct legal challenge.

    Both of these cases indicate that TVL have a database of addresses that they are barred from harassing (as you might expect). The only question is: how to get on that list?
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 04-10-2018 at 4:47 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 4th Oct 18, 7:57 PM
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    EachPenny
    Both of these cases indicate that TVL have a database of addresses that they are barred from harassing (as you might expect). The only question is: how to get on that list?
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    I've been advised by TVL that the most effective way of getting onto that particular list is to give them 150.50 per annum, in exchange for which they will ensure your name is listed, and they will stop harassing you.

    My initial approach is going to be sending the TVL letters on to my MP, with a letter asking them to look into the issue of TVL harassment. They regularly leave 'freepost' envelopes inviting constituents to write in with any issues, so it won't be costing me.

    I doubt it will achieve much, but it will at least share the harassment with someone else

    I'm also tempted to go with the "schedule of charges" type approach. I think I've seen information posted on the internet from the person you are talking about (or someone doing a similar thing)... if nothing else it should provide a bit of amusement for the cold winter evenings.
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • FreeBear
    • By FreeBear 5th Oct 18, 12:30 AM
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    FreeBear
    I've been advised by TVL that the most effective way of getting onto that particular list is to give them 150.50 per annum, in exchange for which they will ensure your name is listed, and they will stop harassing you.
    Originally posted by EachPenny
    Therein lies a problem, one that is common to the two solutions that Cornucopia offers up. You are giving them your name.

    Without a name, their threats hold no power and they can do nothing more than send letters addresses to "The Occupier".
    Her courage will change the world.

    Treasure the moments that you have. Savour them for as long as you can for they will never come back again.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 5th Oct 18, 9:00 AM
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    Cornucopia
    This is the thing about BBC-TV Licensing - their malpractice drags you in, and it is designed to drag you in.

    Whilst it's true that the legal strategies are best when accompanied by a name, it doesn't have to be a real name (just a plausible one). So whilst I think that the risks involved in giving them your real name are slight and somewhat theoretical, there are ways around it if you are concerned.

    There is a further benefit to giving a false name or a recognisable corruption of your real name, which is that they will use that name when they contact you, so you can tell immediately that it is them.

    There are a couple of other perceptions of BBC-TVL that I have: 1) they are the classic "weakened animal" that is more dangerous and less predictable because of that weakness, and 2) the polite, legalistic dialog that one might have with TVL and BBC staff at "head office" is a world away from the more fractious, less well-informed dialogs that take place on the doorstep.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 05-10-2018 at 9:09 AM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • EachPenny
    • By EachPenny 5th Oct 18, 11:27 AM
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    EachPenny
    Therein lies a problem, one that is common to the two solutions that Cornucopia offers up. You are giving them your name.

    Without a name, their threats hold no power and they can do nothing more than send letters addresses to "The Occupier".
    Originally posted by FreeBear
    For people like me and others who have gone LLF after years of paying, this is a moot point. They already have our names and they are assuming we still occupy the property.

    I would guess that after a while of 'returning to sender' they might switch tactics to writing to "The Occupier", but it would be a relatively simple task for them to confirm the named former licence holder was still living at the address (without cooperation of that person being required).
    "In the future, everyone will be rich for 15 minutes"
    • castle96
    • By castle96 5th Oct 18, 11:54 AM
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    castle96
    Hi,
    does TVL have any ability to obtain info from Sky ? Ie, if you have Sky (may of course only be for b/band), then you 'must' have TV/Sky
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 5th Oct 18, 12:44 PM
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    Cornucopia
    Hi,
    does TVL have any ability to obtain info from Sky ? Ie, if you have Sky (may of course only be for b/band), then you 'must' have TV/Sky
    Originally posted by castle96
    There was some discussion of this - giving the BBC an official remit to demand subscriber information from Pay TV providers - but I'm not sure what has happened to it, if anything.

    It could only be done if data was strictly tied to TV subscriptions, and there was no danger of BB-only customer details being passed over. Even then, it raises awkward questions for TVL - I subscribe to Now TV for TV and BB, but it doesn't make me an Evader, quite the opposite.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • cw18
    • By cw18 5th Oct 18, 7:25 PM
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    cw18
    For people like me and others who have gone LLF after years of paying, this is a moot point. They already have our names and they are assuming we still occupy the property.

    I would guess that after a while of 'returning to sender' they might switch tactics to writing to "The Occupier", but it would be a relatively simple task for them to confirm the named former licence holder was still living at the address (without cooperation of that person being required).
    Originally posted by EachPenny
    My 'no licence needed declaration' ran out earlier this year. I was annoyed that yet again they wrote to me asking to confirm I still didn't need well ahead of that date, so decided that this time I wasn't going to act on it until the 2 years were actually up (I've previously done it as soon as they emailed the request). But I forgot......

    I then got a follow-up email that I ignored. Then a letter addressed to me reminding me I'd not been in contact which I also ignored (but didn't return). The next letter came 'to the occupier', so it doesn't take them long to do the switch. I ignored that, then came home one day to a 'we called round' slip in my mailbox. Later got a 'will you be in on......' letter addresed to the occupier which was ignored (and apart from the absence of a 'we called' card I've no idea if they visited as I was on holday that day). I've since had another letter (to the occupier) which tells me they're opening an investigation. I've had that just over a week now, so am waiting to see what their next move will be.


    I've nothing to hide, but have decided enough is enough. I've been telling them since the end of 2010 that I don't need a licence, so surely it's time they accepted that's not about to change. I've no working aerial (and the unplugged one is in the loft so not visible from outside), no Sky dish, my estate can't get cable, and iPlayer is blocked on my router. I do currently have a NowTV subscription for films and entertainment, but am very careful NOT to watch the new episode of a show on the evening it airs live (my fella has Sky and checks when they're being aired for me so that I can avoid those slots - we've discovered he can find that info much more easily via his box than I can the internet).


    I'm not sure how they could confirm I still live here. The obvious legal ways would be the electoral register or phone directory, but I'm not on the open register (so they shouldn't be able to see who lives here) and my landline number is ex-directory (so looking up my name against the address will turn up nothing). Speaking to neighbours probably wouldn't help much either, as the occupants of both the 'obvious to ask' houses (the two I share the drive with) have changed in the last 6 weeks - and I don't think one of them even knows my first name, never mind my surname
    Cheryl
    Groceries : May 11.97 / 120 Apr 137.78 / 100 Mar 99.55 / 100.Feb 85.02 / 80.Jan 112.15 / 130. Annual 446.47 / 1200

    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 6th Oct 18, 10:08 AM
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    Cornucopia
    I think that looking at it from their POV, they (probably) have no viable way to know whether a previously unlicensed person/household has moved house, and a new household is now in place that may have different Licence requirements.

    Of course, there is an element of corporate paranoia in that, because the vast, vast majority of households that need a TV Licence buy one without significant prompting and without any enforcement action, and it isn't necessary for TVL to know any more than that a Licence has now been bought.

    BBC-TVL has previously stated that they have a "duty to enforce" that "originates in law" and which entails ensuring that "every UK address is correctly licensed". I'm not convinced of the truth of any of those statements. From my perspective, the law is narrowly drawn, and there is no overarching duty of enforcement upon the BBC, or anyone else. What there is is a narrow obligation to administer the Licences of those who have them. There's also an option to investigate Licence requirements using a Search Warrant (though BBC-TVL barely uses this).

    Given that the BBC is a massive communications company it does seem to foul-up its own communications on a regular and persistent basis.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 9th Oct 18, 11:29 AM
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    JimmyTheWig
    BBC-TVL has previously stated that they have a "duty to enforce" that "originates in law" and which entails ensuring that "every UK address is correctly licensed".
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    I would argue that a household who have a licence when they don't need one are not correctly licensed. It's a shame that BBC-TVL's duty doesn't extend to these people.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 9th Oct 18, 8:06 PM
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    Cornucopia
    I would argue that a household who have a licence when they don't need one are not correctly licensed. It's a shame that BBC-TVL's duty doesn't extend to these people.
    Originally posted by JimmyTheWig
    I'd certainly like to see them apply that principle to the dissemination of information. Their present approach is ludicrously secretive considering that they are hiding information that is relevant to the very law that they are enforcing.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
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    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 13th Oct 18, 9:55 PM
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    Bedsit Bob
    If an address doesn't have a TV licence, then by default, they think you're watching broadcast TV.
    Originally posted by FreeBear
    And they freely admit it.

    TV Licensing works on the assumption that every UK household requires a Licence.
    by TV Licensing Website
    1984 WAS NOT AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL.

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    • marielamile
    • By marielamile 16th Oct 18, 4:36 PM
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    marielamile
    Tv licence
    Hi everyone . I am a student in Glasgow and I don't know if I have to pay for the TV licence fee. I don't own a TV and also I do not see any UK live programmes or BBC on my laptop. Sometimes I stream some live programmes from my home country(Greece). I would like to mention taht in Greece live streaming is permitted.
    I would appreciate if somebody can help me !
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 16th Oct 18, 4:45 PM
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    Cornucopia
    Hi everyone . I am a student in Glasgow and I don't know if I have to pay for the TV licence fee. I don't own a TV and also I do not see any UK live programmes or BBC on my laptop. Sometimes I stream some live programmes from my home country(Greece). I would like to mention taht in Greece live streaming is permitted.
    I would appreciate if somebody can help me !
    Originally posted by marielamile
    If you watch live streamed programs from Greece then TVL say that you need a TV Licence in the UK.

    There's good reason to believe that they are wrong, but since they make the rules...
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • FreeBear
    • By FreeBear 16th Oct 18, 10:28 PM
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    FreeBear
    There's good reason to believe that they are wrong, but since they make the rules...
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    Point of order. The rules are laid down by government by way of Acts of Parliament. TVL merely interpret these laws to suit their needs and con people out of money.

    They (TVL) will claim that they are conducting an investigation when sending out all those scary letters. The recipients may well (and quite rightly so) claim that these letters amount to harassment. Certainly, TVL are not conducting lawful investigations, else the letters would cease once they find no evidence of a crime being committed.
    Her courage will change the world.

    Treasure the moments that you have. Savour them for as long as you can for they will never come back again.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 16th Oct 18, 11:36 PM
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    Cornucopia
    Point of order. The rules are laid down by government by way of Acts of Parliament.
    Originally posted by FreeBear
    Yes. However in this particular instance the drafting of the legislation resulted in something so ludicrously complicated as to defy definitive interpretation. I have tried to read it and interpreted it one way, and BBC-TVL have done so and interpreted it differently.

    If it were just that question of one interpretation vs. another, I'd probably be inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. However, up until a few years ago their interpretation and mine were the same, and then they changed for no apparent reason. I asked them for their reasoning and they came out with a load of nonsense - they do that sometimes.


    They (TVL) will claim that they are conducting an investigation when sending out all those scary letters. The recipients may well (and quite rightly so) claim that these letters amount to harassment. Certainly, TVL are not conducting lawful investigations, else the letters would cease once they find no evidence of a crime being committed.
    My view is that there are multiple legal issues with what TV Licensing do (both their policies and in extreme cases the scope for their rogue employees to break the law.

    The letters are a classic case in point: around 40 million enforcement letters per year - being sent on a monthly basis to most unlicensed households, which is a completely irrational and counter-productive frequency, not to mention being a massive waste of resources and money. Are they actually harassment, though? Possibly not (once you consider the various massive loopholes in the legislation), or possibly they are considering that it is TVL policy to stop the letters if someone complains of being harassed.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 17-10-2018 at 12:01 AM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
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