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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Archna
    • By MSE Archna 18th Mar 08, 11:39 AM
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    MSE Archna
    TV Licence article Discussion
    • #1
    • 18th Mar 08, 11:39 AM
    TV Licence article Discussion 18th Mar 08 at 11:39 AM


    This thread is specifically to discuss the the


    To discuss or ask a question about this article: click reply
    Last edited by MSE Researcher; 14-06-2010 at 4:08 PM.
    Report inappropriate posts: forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com




Page 137
    • krixike
    • By krixike 11th Apr 18, 11:34 PM
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    krixike
    Okay, thanks for the clarifcation. You are right, just rechecked and my tenancy agreement does say that the tenant is liable to pay for the use f allthe utilities, incl. television license, broadband etc that the tenant elects to install, however , again they can't prove that in case no TV device at all, what programmes do I actually watch via the internet.

    So based on this, it is a kind of relief now, if not 100%, but hopefully there wo't be really any issue.
    Just in case, would you suggest maybe to let TVL know at least once that I do not have any TV thus not subject to the license fee or just ignore them completely?

    Also, still need to know some technical support on how to hide my internet activity better...using VPN maybe?
    • krixike
    • By krixike 11th Apr 18, 11:38 PM
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    krixike
    just forgot something: in case non-payment, once vacating the flat, the legal occupier could contact the letting agent that this tenant living under Nr so and so is still owing us something...do you really think that this can't be binding for the letting agent to withheld my deposit or forward my case to a legal platform?
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 11th Apr 18, 11:52 PM
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    Cornucopia
    Just in case, would you suggest maybe to let TVL know at least once that I do not have any TV thus not subject to the license fee or just ignore them completely?
    Originally posted by krixike
    Personally, I would say not - it is not information that you are legally obliged to provide. However, if you do tell them, then they claim to stop the letters, which you may consider a benefit.

    Also, still need to know some technical support on how to hide my internet activity better...using VPN maybe?
    Why do you want to hide your activity and who from?

    ...this tenant living under Nr so and so is still owing us something...do you really think that this can't be binding for the letting agent to withheld my deposit or forward my case to a legal platform?
    The TV Licence is taxed in real time - there is no enduring liability other than in the particular scenario of clearly missed payments. Since TVL cannot require the LL or LA to make good your payments (even if they deemed them to be missed, which they won't) there is no basis for them to withhold payment from your Deposit. (It may even be illegal).

    Equally, there is no basis for any liability for either Licence Evasion or Licence Debt through the Courts once you have left the address.


    The key thing from all of my comments is to be clear in your own mind that you do not need a Licence. Your usage (live streaming from non-UK channels) is the only scenario that I cannot give you definitive advice on, because TVL's position is confused, and appears to be contradicted by the legislation.

    I would therefore advise you to ask them, and buy a Licence if they say you need one. I have asked for further clarification on this from TVL, but have not yet received a response.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 11-04-2018 at 11:56 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • krixike
    • By krixike 12th Apr 18, 12:01 AM
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    krixike
    All clear (as mud..:-) ), but will leave this for now anyway.
    Appreciate for all your detailed help & with at least some more clarification on this wishy-washy fee, let's see how I get on and especially for how long this situation can be maintained in the long run..
    • Heedtheadvice
    • By Heedtheadvice 12th Apr 18, 11:44 AM
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    Heedtheadvice
    ....not a comment or to add to the debate about the main topic of this thread but to try and help you, krixite.

    As Cornucopia writes there is conflicting information going around -and a lack of answer to what seems to be a perfectly valid question by him/her. In many respects it is that the law surrounding the licence requirement (as is often the case with any fast changing technological topics) struggles to keep up with the changes and results in lack of clarity and confusion. In this case (watching foreign only TV via an online connection) only really affecting a very few people. No doubt the law and the information will evolve in time!

    There is a bit of clarification on the following page as to the authorities viewpoint http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/watching-online-and-on-mobile-devices-TOP14
    That page says you need a licence if watching any live TV (origin does not come into it, it seems) and online services such as Now TV are included in that.

    There are however still several areas where it is unclear to most of us!. I would guess (and it only is that) watching foreign live TV where it is not provided as part of a TV service (this could be on a browser using any internet service provider ) could be a 'grey' area not covered by law or clarified by case law and thus maybe unknown.

    Given the need to now declare tv licenced premises when watching BBC iPlayer I would not be surprised if there was the ability to link IP addresses with postal addresses to check on that validity. There will be people trying to watch illegally.

    Conclusion:
    If you are doing what you say (only watching foreign TV quite legally) then I would be tempted to fill in a declaration of node licence need (can be accessed via the above web site). You may get a visit from officials to confirm that but once accepted you should have no further problems!

    Concern:
    You do raise alarm bells a little when you post that you want your internet access to be hidden. You may have a perfectly valid and lawful reason for that or you might just be looking for a way to beat the system. Only you know.

    Footnote: I do wonder if any of the foregoing will have helped at all!
    Last edited by Heedtheadvice; 12-04-2018 at 11:47 AM. Reason: oh just the usual typos and corrections to the written post!
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 12th Apr 18, 12:04 PM
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    Cornucopia
    Part of the problem is that this statement from TVL's present website:

    You need a TV Licence to watch or record live TV programmes on any channel or device, no matter where they are broadcast or distributed from. This includes satellite or online streamed programmes from outside the UK or Channel Islands, such as sporting events and foreign shows.
    directly contradicts this statement that used to be on their website until 2016:

    Watching TV on the internet - You need to be covered by a licence if you watch TV online at the same time as it's being broadcast on conventional TV in the UK or the Channel Islands.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20160131160631/http://www.tvlicensing.co.uk:80/check-if-you-need-one

    When I asked them about this, they (in their usual unhelpful way) said that the law had not changed, but rather than clarify the matter and say that either the old or new info was wrong, they confusingly implied that both statements were correct. Ultimately, it became obvious that they were not going to provide a clear reasoning on the matter.

    The sad thing about it is that the people most likely to want to know this information are those least likely to be able to cope with wordy nonsense from the relevant authority.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • abulawright
    • By abulawright 12th Apr 18, 12:56 PM
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    abulawright
    Query on "Plugged In" text of TVL Website
    Hiya,

    Sorry for the repetition, I know there have been similar posts before in this thread but my searches have not 100% answered my question.

    My Query is to do with the terminology of the student's page.

    In the MSE article, it says this:
    This means students whose parents have a TV licence are fine to use BBC iPlayer and/or watch live television on a tablet, smartphone or laptop that's not charging at the time, without having to pay for their own licence...
    Whereas the TVL page says:
    A halls communal licence won!!!8217;t cover your room. But you may be covered by your parents!!!8217; licence. If you think you are, please check that all of the following are true before telling us you don!!!8217;t need one:
    • Your out-of-term address (parents!!!8217; address) is covered by a TV Licence
    • AND you only use TV receiving equipment that is powered solely by its own internal batteries
    • AND you have not connected it to an aerial or plugged it into the mains.
    The TVL website makes it sound like it is illegal if your laptop has ever been plugged in to the mains at your student address, wheras the MSE article says it is legal so long as its not on charget at the time of watching.

    So basically, my question is, do I need a TV license to watch BBC iPlayer / Live TV on my laptop if it was on charge before I started watching? My parents have a License at my non-term time address.

    Thanks in advance
    Last edited by abulawright; 12-04-2018 at 2:15 PM.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 12th Apr 18, 1:12 PM
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    Cornucopia
    So basically, my question is, do I need a TV license to watch BBC iPlayer / Live TV on my laptop if it was on charge before I started watching? My parents have a License at my non-term time address.
    Originally posted by abulawright
    No.

    The MSE article is a better form of words - the exemption is based on whether the laptop is connected to mains power/aerial connection at the time of viewing.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • krixike
    • By krixike 12th Apr 18, 7:46 PM
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    krixike
    @ Cornucopia & Heedtheadvice,

    Thank you for the detailed feedback on this, and noted.

    regarding completing the declaration form I am still trying to wait for a while (as long as possible..) and see what happens as I can anytime say that I have never received any letter from TVL at all...no one can trace it if true or not.

    Regarding hiding my browser activity is just a crafty idea, as this is still not 100% clear in which category my situation belongs to as per the law (even if their website says it more or less clearly...), however still cannot believe how the heck they can find out whether I was watching the online live telly at 9.35 pm on 21st FEB 2018 or not?? There's no way they can find it out unless their system is connected to the Pentagon or FBI!

    And also wonder what other people in the same - or similar situation - do to try to make use of this loophole via a sort of VPN-solution or any other tools that are capable of hiding their browser history..
    Anyway, will see how long this is situation can be sustainable, as I have been reading through some other forums on this topis, loads of people just ignore these letters from TVL and haven't even got into any bigger serious trouble (yet).
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 12th Apr 18, 8:46 PM
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    Bedsit Bob
    Just in case, would you suggest maybe to let TVL know at least once that I do not have any TV thus not subject to the license fee or just ignore them completely?
    Originally posted by krixike
    In your shoes (actually, come to think of it, I am in your shoes ), I wouldn't tell them anything.
    My job is Top Secret. Even I don't know what I'm doing.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - 1308

    Who are you to question why your god doesn't want me to believe in him?
    • krixike
    • By krixike 12th Apr 18, 9:36 PM
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    krixike
    there's the point:-) pls let me know the score how long have you been in these "shoes" ? :-)
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 12th Apr 18, 9:50 PM
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    Bedsit Bob
    Just over 8 years.
    My job is Top Secret. Even I don't know what I'm doing.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - 1308

    Who are you to question why your god doesn't want me to believe in him?
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 12th Apr 18, 9:58 PM
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    Cornucopia
    regarding completing the declaration form I am still trying to wait for a while (as long as possible..) and see what happens as I can anytime say that I have never received any letter from TVL at all...no one can trace it if true or not.
    Originally posted by krixike
    The letters are irrelevant in that sense - they call on people who have ignored the letters, and those who have responded. That's the main reason why it is pointless to worry too much about whether to complete their form or not. If anyone is thinking of "breaking cover" to make a response, I would recommend that it be a legal remedy, such as refusing in advance to be interviewed under caution.

    Regarding hiding my browser activity is just a crafty idea, as this is still not 100% clear in which category my situation belongs to as per the law (even if their website says it more or less clearly...), however still cannot believe how the heck they can find out whether I was watching the online live telly at 9.35 pm on 21st FEB 2018 or not?? There's no way they can find it out unless their system is connected to the Pentagon or FBI!
    Indeed, it is pointless to seek to hide your use of web services, since they have no way to obtain information about it. That's not to condone evasion, and my advice here is on the basis that a best endeavours reading of the law shows that live streaming from outside the UK does not require a Licence.

    They work by obtaining confessions (some of which are genuinely provided, and others extracted by bluster and bullying).

    Anyway, will see how long this is situation can be sustainable, as I have been reading through some other forums on this topis, loads of people just ignore these letters from TVL and haven't even got into any bigger serious trouble (yet).
    The letters don't mean anything in themselves. They are simply evidence that your premises are on the scrutiny list for TVL.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 12-04-2018 at 10:07 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • krixike
    • By krixike 12th Apr 18, 10:10 PM
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    krixike
    OK, again, will think it over again and act accordingly.

    @Bedsit Bob: well done or just crafty enough?!
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 12th Apr 18, 10:23 PM
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    Bedsit Bob
    well done or just crafty enough?!
    Originally posted by krixike
    There's nothing particularly "crafty", about ignoring them.
    My job is Top Secret. Even I don't know what I'm doing.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - 1308

    Who are you to question why your god doesn't want me to believe in him?
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 12th Apr 18, 10:54 PM
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    Cornucopia
    There's nothing particularly "crafty", about ignoring them.
    Originally posted by Bedsit Bob
    I suppose it's easy to believe that when an "official agency" tells you things, that those things are objectively true, and therefore they appear to be out to stop (or at least challenge and control) people who want to exercise their rights under the law to live without a TV Licence if they meet the necessary conditions.

    Those of us who know the TV Licensing debacle know differently, and know that much of what they say isn't objectively true, or at least lacks suitable detail and impartiality to be an objective statement of the complete truth.

    So much for the BBC's mission to inform.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 13-04-2018 at 9:39 AM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • JimmyTheWig
    • By JimmyTheWig 13th Apr 18, 10:11 AM
    • 11,599 Posts
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    JimmyTheWig
    And also wonder what other people in the same - or similar situation - do to try to make use of this loophole via a sort of VPN-solution or any other tools that are capable of hiding their browser history..
    Originally posted by krixike
    If you need to hide your browser history then you're not using a loophole.
    It would be like finding out where the security cameras are in a shop and using that "loophole" to nick stuff.
    The loophole is to watch as much as you are allowed to without needing a licence.

    You have three choices.
    1. Buy a licence.
    2. Become LLF - i.e. have no licence and don't do anything that requires a licence. No hiding required.
    3. Break the law by doing stuff that needs a licence but hiding the fact and not buying a licence.

    This site doesn't condone number 3.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 13th Apr 18, 10:26 AM
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    Cornucopia
    If you need to hide your browser history then you're not using a loophole.
    It would be like finding out where the security cameras are in a shop and using that "loophole" to nick stuff.
    The loophole is to watch as much as you are allowed to without needing a licence.
    Originally posted by JimmyTheWig
    That was my initial reading of what krixike posted, but reading some of his(?) other comments, I'm not so sure. I get the impression that he may be concerned that TVL have some marginal or unlawful investigatory powers with regards to IP searches or wifi sniffing that it would therefore be legitimate to work around.

    Since we know that that isn't too far off the truth, I'd say that some leeway was justified.

    2. Become LLF - i.e. have no licence and don't do anything that requires a licence. No hiding required.
    Have you any ideas about how to square the circle on international streaming of TV channels? If TVL are going to mess people around on this (and those people are often working with less experience of the English language or British bureaucrats) what are we/MSE supposed to do in providing advice on the issue - other than the patchy and cautious response I've already given?

    3. Break the law by doing stuff that needs a licence but hiding the fact and not buying a licence.

    This site doesn't condone number 3.
    I agree, but in the unique situation where the relevant authority sees fit to obfuscate the legal position, it does leave something of a practical and moral dilemma.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 13-04-2018 at 10:29 AM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Bedsit Bob
    • By Bedsit Bob 13th Apr 18, 8:09 PM
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    Bedsit Bob
    The loophole is to watch as much as you are allowed to without needing a licence.
    Originally posted by JimmyTheWig
    That's not a loophole.

    It's simply operating within the law.
    My job is Top Secret. Even I don't know what I'm doing.

    Amount I have so far denied the BBC - 1308

    Who are you to question why your god doesn't want me to believe in him?
    • NewSaver2018
    • By NewSaver2018 16th Apr 18, 10:06 AM
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    NewSaver2018
    It is a good concept. However, I had a depressing run in with tv Licensing before when I moved into a new flat...
    The old people had not paid and I had to first deal with the threatening letters I only opened when they were addressed to the occupier... So I had the threat of court action and bailiffs to put off as I wasn't me who owed them .. Then they started on me, I had not even got a TV before the letters started arriving, so I thought it would be a matter of waiting until I actually got one before paying for a license! However I received more letters saying they have to come round and check, which I wasn't happy about as I did not know exactly when I was going to get a TV, I was out all day from morning to night, and I would have thought they would take my word as I explained I would start to pay for a licence when I got my TV.but the letters kept coming.. In the end I got so fed up I just paid, it turned out two months for no reason and a sarky "thankyou for realising that, after all, you do need a licence" note from them.. .. It's all on direct debit and I can't face the hassle of going through that again!
    Maybe I am just not suited for Money Savings after all!!
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