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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Martin
    • By MSE Martin 9th Oct 04, 9:06 PM
    • 8,111Posts
    • 42,248Thanks
    MSE Martin
    Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    • #1
    • 9th Oct 04, 9:06 PM
    Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review 9th Oct 04 at 9:06 PM
    Chip'n'pin, the process where rather than signing for goods in shops you need a pin number, is gradually rolling in. !

    Before reading on - read the full Chip'n'Pin article

    Pinsafe via www.chipnpin.org is a cute little system. !It's only going to be useful for those with a number of cards struggling to remember them.

    How it works.

    First pick a code word - e.g. !PANTS

    Then take your first card pin number e.g. 6969 !

    You are then given a little sticker to put in your wallet/purse with each cards name on. !The sticker lists all letters of the alphabet and you write your pin number on it under the corresponding letters to your word. !(note don't put it on the card as it will jam in the machines)

    e.g P 6, A 9, N 6, T 9

    This is then put on your sticker

    A9 B C D E F G H I J K L M N6 O P6 Q R S T9 U V W X Y Z
    ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !
    Then the rest of the letters are filled in by random number (either yourself or using a random number generator).

    So your sticker now looks like this
    A9 B7 C3 D9 E6 F4 G5 H6 I1 J1 K1 L0 M6 N6 O9 P6 Q3 R8 S8 T9 U8 V6 W3 X2 Y1 Z0

    Then when you come to use the card simply look up your PANTS (or in this case as it's four numbers PANT) and you know your pin number.

    You use the same word to store each pin code, but change the random letters. !So you only need to remember one word even for ten pin codes.

    This may seem like if someone looked over your shoulder and saw you put in 6969 and understood the system - they'd be able to work out !your pin word. !Actually take a look at the example, even someone who knew your pin wouldn't be able to work out the word. !They still wouldn't be able to work out your pin word from it - so the same word can be used for all stickers. !

    My Review: !Not a bad little system, the maths works out, so that using a pin word is better than using just one pin number. !It would of course be possible to create the stickers yourself, however in many ways for £2 it's not a bad idea to order it. ! This has been put together not by a company but an individual, and it's quite a cute little system. !I've no proof he will fulfill all the orders, but he had one sent to me with one days notice, so its seems a reasonable bet.

    The Problems: It's only worth it for those really stuggling to remember pin numbers. ! Most people should be fine and there are many other methods to remember pin numbers, however it's not bad for those who want a ready made solution if you're struggling.

    Isn't this writing down your pin? Thought you couldn't do that !I spoke to Sandra Quinn of APACS (who are in charge of all payment transactions and the like). !Providing you don't write your pin down normally, this won't invalidate and protection at all - as long as you follow the instructions carefully. !IN fact they said they (the card industry) are very much in favour of anything like this that helps people remember there pin - so there's no probs.


    How to get it: Go to www.chipnpin.org. !Also the company has agreed it will supply a code for MoneySavers so that they can buy it for 20% off. !
    Go to the website and then on the Order page, there is a link >>Click here for moneysavingexpert Offer

    This link calls up a login box........

    the Username is- ! !chip
    the password is- ! ! pin

    Martin
Page 1
    • Joe_Bloggs
    • By Joe_Bloggs 9th Oct 04, 9:32 PM
    • 4,455 Posts
    • 1,565 Thanks
    Joe_Bloggs
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 04, 9:32 PM
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    • #2
    • 9th Oct 04, 9:32 PM
    Putting a sticker on the back of a card is not a good idea. perhaps putting the sticker in a wallet near the card is better so that you can refer to the information whilst the card is in an ATM machine.
    J_B.
  • Robert_Sterling
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 04, 10:25 PM
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    • #3
    • 9th Oct 04, 10:25 PM
    Does any one have any bright ideas for remembering all the four letter pass words I use for my many different cards?
    • Jane.tweedynn
    • By Jane.tweedynn 10th Oct 04, 12:31 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    Jane.tweedynn
    • #4
    • 10th Oct 04, 12:31 AM
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    • #4
    • 10th Oct 04, 12:31 AM
    I don’t know about memorising but you could use codes by hiding your pin in a bogus telephone number you have in your mobile.

    First decide if you want to use a friend’s telephone number or create an imaginary friend.

    Then decide if you want your pin to be a valid telephone number or one you have made up.

    If you decide to use a friend’s telephone number then you may have to change your pin number to that of their telephone number. If you decide to create an imaginary friend you can use the first character of their name to determine the card issuer.

    For example if you have an egg card you can create your imaginary friend under E, if you have an MBNA card you can create your imaginary friend under M, etc.

    From the telephone number which is say 6 or 7 numbers for land lines or 11 numbers for mobiles you can decide on any combination of how the numbers are organised.

    As an example

    Telephone number excluding area code is 506985 you can decide on a pin of the first four numbers of 5069 or the last four of 6985 or the middle four numbers of 0698 or the first two and last two 5085 or any other combination you like. It is best that whichever method you choose to stick with it.

    So as a full example

    If you have an Egg card, create an imaginary friend in your phone book as say Wendy Etherington or Emma S if your phonebook is not formal and if your pin is 6985 and you choose to use the last four numbers of the phone number, you create the bogus telephone number of 0114 506985.
    • MSE Martin
    • By MSE Martin 10th Oct 04, 5:55 AM
    • 8,111 Posts
    • 42,248 Thanks
    MSE Martin
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 04, 5:55 AM
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    • #5
    • 10th Oct 04, 5:55 AM
    Sorry, to clarify

    You use one word for all passwords (it works that way) as the random numbers are different,not mutiple words. !

    I will amend the original post. !And yes you could put the sticker on your wallet or the card, but this idea is only for those with mutliple cards and teh stickers differ with each card. As i say i am checking whether this invalidates your protection.

    To be honest though even if someone had the sticker they'd be hard pressed to work the code out. And the leaflet does warn you to write with equal pressure all numbers.
    • student100
    • By student100 10th Oct 04, 2:33 PM
    • 1,054 Posts
    • 333 Thanks
    student100
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 04, 2:33 PM
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    • #6
    • 10th Oct 04, 2:33 PM
    So what exactly are they selling on the site? A couple of stickers with space to write on them??
  • Robert_Sterling
    • #7
    • 10th Oct 04, 3:28 PM
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    • #7
    • 10th Oct 04, 3:28 PM
    Like a lot of things it will suit some people but not others.
    Whatever it is they sell you can get 10 of them for £5 if you want to and then sell them on I suppose to your friends at £1 each. !That's !not what friends are for really but it saves them paying a lot more for a single one of them!
    I was surprised when my daughter bought 500ml of water for £1 in a motorway service station ( actually it was me who paid the £1).
    Horses for courses is i think the saying.
    There is a link to the site in an earlier post in this thread.
    • MSE Martin
    • By MSE Martin 10th Oct 04, 4:29 PM
    • 8,111 Posts
    • 42,248 Thanks
    MSE Martin
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 04, 4:29 PM
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    • #8
    • 10th Oct 04, 4:29 PM
    Yes it's not far from a couple of stickers - but it is in fact a whole pack which explains how to do it. As i said, it's rather neatly set out.

    There is a slight worry here. For most MoneySavers and regular Chat Forum users who are good with their cash this is completely unnecessary and you will never need to use it.

    However at some stage this will be going in the tip - and it's worth remembering the audience for that is far wider and with some people who have much greater issues with remembering pin numbers.

    So i'd ask highly money savvy regulars, to step back a second from this one, truth is it isn't for you anyway.

    martin
    • James
    • By James 12th Oct 04, 1:37 AM
    • 2,014 Posts
    • 614 Thanks
    James
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 04, 1:37 AM
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    • #9
    • 12th Oct 04, 1:37 AM
    If you have problems with PINs, maybe you can't remember them, don't want to write your PIN in any disguised form, can't handle a PIN due to lack of dexterity, or through a sight impairment or maybe you think, if I don't have a PIN then I can't loose it, compromise it, lock it out, or be held responsible for it in any way then a Chip & Signature Card is an option.

    Here is what two card issuers say on their websites:
    EGG:

    Do I have to have a Chip and PIN card?
    Yes. All your credit and debit cards will be replaced with Chip and PIN cards over the next two years. If you feel there are circumstances why you cannot use a Chip and PIN card and you'd like to be issued with a signature Egg Card instead, please get in touch. We can review this on an individual basis.


    NATIONWIDE.
    Chip and PIN technology and disabled people
    Chip and PIN technology will have benefits for many disabled people. However, a small number of people may find it difficult, or impossible, to use a PIN. Customers in this position may request a Chip and Signature card to allow them to use their debit or credit cards without the use of a PIN. This card will allow people to continue to authorise transactions by signature. If a disability prevents you from using a PIN, please ask for a Chip and Signature card. Your local branch will be pleased to help you, or contact Nationwide's Call Centre on 08457 30 20 10.

    IMHO at first glance I would suggest that these card issuers would have you believe you have to be disabled to quality for a Chip & Signature Card. This is part of the sPIN surrounding Chip & PIN.

    If anyone wants to learn how Chip & Signature Cards are processed then the answer is on page 7 of the following pdf file.

    http://www.atoc.org/rsp/chip_pin/docs/tisop_procedures.pdf

    Many credit card issuer are loathed to tell you that there is such as beast as a Chip & Signature Card.

    Martins artilce on Chip & PIN drew our attention to higher debt levels because a PIN gives everyone (including crooks) easy access to hard cash!

    Can anyone remember the tick box that used to appear on card application forms, tick here if you want a PIN so you can use your credit card at an ATM? In other words nobody has asked us the consumers if we want a PIN?

    Chip & PIN is not compulsory you have a choice, Chip & Signature, it's just your not being told about it, I wonder why?


    James

    • KG
    • By KG 14th Oct 04, 1:01 PM
    • 323 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    KG
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    Thanks Martin. Just orded one of these for Mr KG who always uses the excuse that he can't remember his pin number to make me go to the cash machine...

    KG
  • cport80
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    There is a slight worry here. For most MoneySavers and regular Chat Forum users who are good with their cash this is completely unnecessary and you will never need to use it.
    Since finding this site I've had more cards than at any time before (although I don't keep them as long these days )

    There are plenty of books about memory enhancement techniques in which numbers are turned into words (I borrowed one by Tony Buzan from my local library and couldn't beleive I'd never been taught something so useful in my school days). I have had days when I'm only half-awake though and it's taken a couple of tries to remember pin numbers so this might be a good alternative.
  • jo124
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    This is not new, I have been using it for years, it was recomended to customers as a way of remembering their PIN when I worked for the HSBC back in the early nineties.
  • Yvonnerj
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    You can change your PIN to a number you find easier to remember - usually at a cashpoint.

    This means that you can change all your cards so that they have the same number, meaning that you only have one number to remember, and you decide what it is.

    I've got two numbers, one for credit cards and one for debit cards (consecutive numbers, so easy to remember). This makes sure I don't accidentally withdraw cash on a credit card, and get charged for doing so.
    • david78
    • By david78 15th Oct 04, 12:41 AM
    • 1,591 Posts
    • 584 Thanks
    david78
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    Its a good system. What you can also do is use a "master pin" code instead of the code word. e.g. master pin = 4672 and card 1 pin = 2576, card 2 pin = 8991

    Then your wallet/purse reminder would look like this:

    c1 c2
    0 6 2
    1 5 9
    2 6 1
    3 7 1
    4 2 8
    5 3 8
    6 5 9
    7 7 9
    8 7 5
    9 1 4

    Of course you DON'T underline the pin numbers like I have done here.
    • South_Hams
    • By South_Hams 15th Oct 04, 1:12 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    South_Hams
    Alternative Chip N Pin Memory Solution
    I have a handy little excel program that generates a printable credit card sized output that I have been using for the last year or two. It works on the same principle but combimes all the cards on one printout.

    Is there any way of posting the file ??

    If not I am willing to email it if anyone would like to try it.
    • charlieheard
    • By charlieheard 29th Oct 04, 8:51 PM
    • 518 Posts
    • 151 Thanks
    charlieheard
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    The excel sheet sounds useful. If can't get it off the MSE site and you have access to a sheet of sticky labels such as Avery (and most offices do now), you can print out a label with your Cards, your A-Z and your numbers for each letter. Just use a fixed font like Courier to make the letters and numbers line up

    CC1
    ABCDEFG......Z
    5674259....5
    CC2...


    Save yourself the money (unless you own the office, that is )
    • robbies_gal
    • By robbies_gal 30th Oct 04, 3:52 PM
    • 7,674 Posts
    • 151,466 Thanks
    robbies_gal
    Re: Chip N Pin Memory Solution: Pin Safe Review
    i use the telephone number sysytem

    just a false name for each card disguised ina phone number-noone knows wot it is they would have to try every number in my phone and they dont know where ive put it in the number either
    • PinkPig
    • By PinkPig 30th May 05, 9:03 AM
    • 250 Posts
    • 147 Thanks
    PinkPig
    The terms and conditions on my bank account say you should not "write down your PIN number in a form that can be read by someone else" - and since this form couldn't be (easily) used by someone else, it seems they'd not mind!
    • quoia
    • By quoia 7th Feb 06, 3:51 PM
    • 13,143 Posts
    • 141,565 Thanks
    quoia
    I've just created a PIN cribsheet for all our credit cards, service tills Cirrus etc - over 30 including the wife's.

    I used MS Excel - put all the card names down the left, A to Z across the top.
    Then put the following formula =INT(RAND()*10) in all the A to Z cells

    This generates random numbers from 0 to 9 in every cell.

    Pick your 4 letter word - say FIRE

    For each row (each card) change the value for F, I, R and E, from the above formula to the correct digit for the 4 numbers of the pin number for that particular card.

    You end up with a string of 26 random numbers for each card.
    All you have to do is remember your particular 4 letter SECRET word and not tell anyone else !!

    Like this - EXAMPLE only

    Card A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
    A&LMast 0 2 6 8 2 6 2 3 0 4 8 9 2 6 9 8 2 7 9 1 8 6 1 4 6 2
    ActionlineV 6 0 3 2 5 4 2 8 4 4 2 1 4 0 8 1 3 8 0 8 3 0 7 6 9 4
    AmExNectarD 8 3 8 8 2 6 9 0 3 0 2 5 3 3 0 4 7 2 2 8 1 6 7 2 8 4
    AmExNectarJ 3 3 1 3 3 2 9 4 4 7 4 3 7 4 1 0 2 7 1 9 3 6 3 1 5 3
    CahootJ 7 6 5 6 1 5 9 0 3 9 5 3 4 5 2 5 7 5 6 7 1 9 0 5 0 9
    DerbyshireLinkD 3 3 2 0 2 8 1 2 3 9 1 3 1 7 2 4 5 6 9 9 1 0 1 1 6 2
    DerbyshireLinkJ 7 4 9 9 5 7 7 6 2 5 4 0 4 3 6 8 2 5 1 9 4 2 3 3 1 0
    FirstDirectD 3 7 2 7 1 4 1 8 8 7 8 1 5 1 8 2 7 6 1 0 1 8 3 8 1 1
    NationwideFlexD 3 6 8 9 7 3 5 3 3 8 2 4 2 3 6 6 5 1 4 6 2 7 8 1 0 1
    NationwideFlexJ 4 4 9 3 7 8 9 9 8 1 2 2 5 8 4 1 0 5 1 7 4 4 5 2 6 9

    Alliance & Leicester Mastercard (A&LMast) using FIRE = 6072
    Cahoot using FIRE = 5351


    Obviously in Excel they all line up nice and neatly, print it out and keep it with your cards. PERFECTLY SAFE !!!
    There are 10 types of people in the world. ‹(•¿•)›
    ‹(•¿•)› Those that understand binary and those that do not!


    Veni, Vidi, VISA ! ................. I came, I saw, I PURCHASED
    (11)A104.28S94.98O112.46N86.73D101.02(12)J130.63F126.76M134.38A200.98M156.30J95.56J102.85A175.93
    S LOWER CASE OMEGA;6.59 so far ..
  • Angie8
    Correct me if I'm wrong but I can see a security flaw with this system.

    If a shoulder surfer happens to see your PIN and then gets a hold of your wallet (e.g. picking your pocket), then they'd have a fairly decent chance of working out all of the PINs for every card you have (assuming you keep the CRIB card in your wallet or have stickers on the backs of the cards).

    To use the example above, if they spot you entering 5351 as your Cahoot PIN, it would only probably take 20 minutes to break the PINs on the rest of the cards. Then they can have a field day with the rest of your cards.

    If you work through the possible letter combinations one by one using the numbers 5351, you'll find that most of them make nonsense words, the first 2 being CIFE and CIFU (anyone bored enough to have a go at the rest? ).

    As soon as a proper English word pops out, the chances are that this is going to be the PIN word.

    The system is good, but to have true security you should use a nonsense word such as XJRA instead of FIRE. Also, the crib sheet should be kept seperate from cards.
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