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  • FIRST POST
    • WilburJaguar
    • By WilburJaguar 14th Jan 20, 5:44 PM
    • 12Posts
    • 21Thanks
    WilburJaguar
    Parking charge from PremierPark Ltd
    • #1
    • 14th Jan 20, 5:44 PM
    Parking charge from PremierPark Ltd 14th Jan 20 at 5:44 PM
    Hello all!

    I am in the process of writing up an appeal letter for a parking charge I was issued for "whole period of parking not paid for". I can't seem to post a link to the image of my NTK as I'm a new user, so unfortunately I can't show the NTK - any ideas to get around this?

    I've done lots of my own research on this forum as well as on LegalBeagles too, to help make a strong appeal, but as this is my first time appealing, I still feel like an outside view is beneficial.

    I am seeking advice that anyone may be able to provide on my appeal letter, so as to ensure the best chance of a successful appeal. Anything that doesn't help my case, or anything you spot that might be applicable (from POFA for example), which I've not listed; if you could please point this out, I would be most appreciative and will include this in my appeal.

    My current draft is as follows:

    Reference PCN: XXXXXXX.

    I am writing with regard to the parking charge notice (ref: XXXXXXX) You (PremierPark Ltd, referred to as You thusly) issued on January 7th, to myself as the registered keeper of the vehicle concerned. Any liability or contractual agreement is denied. I am appealing Your parking charge notice as the keeper of the concerned vehicle. There will be no admissions as to who was driving, as is my legal right and no assumptions can be made from this appeal.

    As this Notice to Keeper (referred to as NTK hereafter) relates to the alleged issue of whole period of parking not paid for, I require You send all photos taken concerning this case and any further evidence You can show.

    I dispute Your notice on the grounds as follows, which directly infringe on Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (referred to as POFA hereafter), which sets out the statement that failure to adhere to all conditions contained within Schedule 4 of the POFA will result in no action or liability allowed to be taken against the registered keeper of this vehicle, since transfer of liability is denied. My points to support this are given thusly:

    Section 9 (2)(a) of Schedule 4 of the POFA states that a valid NTK “must specify.. ..the period of parking to which the notice relates.” This notice fails to show the period of parking paid for given that there are only two photographs supplied, showing the vehicle entering and exiting the car park. Since these only show the vehicle when moving, it cannot be given as evidence of parking therefore, to state that this is evidence of the period of parking is invalid and fails to meet this section of Schedule 4 of the POFA.



    Section 9 (2)(e) of Schedule 4 of POFA states that a valid NTK “must state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver.” Having read Your NTK, I point out that there is no statement contained within, which states that You do not know this information. As such, the NTK provided fails to meet this section of Schedule 4 of the POFA.
    This same section of Schedule 4 of the POFA also extends to state that the NTK must “invite the keeper to notify [You] of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver.” I cannot find information on Your NTK which states that I must pass the notice onto the driver, meaning Your NTK fails to meet this condition of Schedule 4 of the POFA.
    As such, I must conclude that there is a lack of/no information set out as described by Schedule 4, Section 9 (2)(e).

    Section 9 (2)(h) of the POFA sets out that for an NTK to be valid, the notice “must identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made.” The NTK I have received fails to inform me of the Creditor - as described by Section 2 (1) stating that a Creditor is a person - to which payment would be made. It also fails to inform me if You are collecting monies on behalf of the creditor.

    I also add the following point onto those aforementioned, which supports my appeal:

    The allegation of Whole Period Of Parking Not Paid For fails to evidence the information indicative of the actual grace period for entering and exiting the car park, as agreed by the landowner. As such, I require evidence of this agreement and failure to provide this will act as further evidence to support my appeal.

    To conclude, the reasons for appealing this NTK are that it fails to adhere to the conditions of Schedule 4 of the POFA; as such, liability of this charge cannot be transferred to the registered keeper of the vehicle if the required information of the driver cannot be obtained. The NTK also fails to evidence information of a grace period as agreed by the landowner.

    Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the information in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

    Yours faithfully,

    (My name and keeper address)



    I intend to update this thread as my appeal goes on, so be sure to track it if you're in a similar boat.

    Many thanks in advance!
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jan 20, 3:24 AM
    • 80,775 Posts
    • 95,417 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 15th Jan 20, 3:24 AM
    • #2
    • 15th Jan 20, 3:24 AM
    Welcome!

    You will be unlikely to win on appeal, which is why PLAN A is to complain to the landowner.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • WilburJaguar
    • By WilburJaguar 15th Jan 20, 8:04 AM
    • 12 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    WilburJaguar
    • #3
    • 15th Jan 20, 8:04 AM
    • #3
    • 15th Jan 20, 8:04 AM
    Hi Coupon-mad,

    Thanks for your response! Can i ask why this would be unsuccessful?

    I thought given the reasons in my draft, that would mean they cannot pursue the keeper if they don't know the driver's info. Is this incorrect?

    I'll make contact with the landowners today to appeal firstly. Thanks again.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 15th Jan 20, 9:06 AM
    • 6,299 Posts
    • 8,354 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #4
    • 15th Jan 20, 9:06 AM
    • #4
    • 15th Jan 20, 9:06 AM
    Because PP will, like basically ALL PPCs, just reject any appeal.
    • WilburJaguar
    • By WilburJaguar 15th Jan 20, 9:20 AM
    • 12 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    WilburJaguar
    • #5
    • 15th Jan 20, 9:20 AM
    • #5
    • 15th Jan 20, 9:20 AM
    Okay; should I include a request to provide me with a POPLA code should the appeal be rejected - as seems to be apparent.

    I am currently writing to the landowner in hopes that this supercedes the need for appeal with Premier Park Ltd.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Jan 20, 9:31 AM
    • 41,879 Posts
    • 92,818 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 15th Jan 20, 9:31 AM
    • #6
    • 15th Jan 20, 9:31 AM
    You don't need to ask for a PoPLA code, it will (should) be given automatically if/when your initial appeal is rejected.

    We normally advise most posters to use the ready written appeal template in blue text from post 1 of the NEWBIES to make the initial appeal.
    It serves two purposes. One is that it doesn't reveal the driver's identity which often happens when someone inexperienced tries to write their own, and the other is that the PPC recognises it and therefore knows the motorist is getting MSE forum help.
    A few PPCs will cancel when they see the blue appeal, but I don't believe Premier Park Ltd is one of them.

    Don't forget to write to your MP about this unregulated scam.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 15th Jan 20, 9:33 AM
    • 1,275 Posts
    • 2,681 Thanks
    MistyZ
    • #7
    • 15th Jan 20, 9:33 AM
    • #7
    • 15th Jan 20, 9:33 AM
    You should get a POPLA code automatically.

    Do the appeal to PP within the time frame. The landowner can easily cancel the PCN even when the first appeal has been done / rejected. But it gets a little more complicated after a POPLA appeal.

    Landowner complaints can require perseverance so it's best to send it ASAP just in case a little 'reminder' is required!

    Actually it can be quite annoying when you're all fired up for POPLA etc. and then the landowner complies! Almost seems too easy! But it is a great route for making the problem go away so make the complaint a good one.
    Last edited by MistyZ; 15-01-2020 at 9:37 AM.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Jan 20, 9:34 AM
    • 16,413 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #8
    • 15th Jan 20, 9:34 AM
    • #8
    • 15th Jan 20, 9:34 AM
    Can i ask why this would be unsuccessful?

    Because nine times out of ten these tickets are scams, so consider complaining to your MP, it can cause the scammer extra costs and work, and has been known to get the charge cancelled.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, many of whom are former clampers, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • WilburJaguar
    • By WilburJaguar 15th Jan 20, 10:09 AM
    • 12 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    WilburJaguar
    • #9
    • 15th Jan 20, 10:09 AM
    • #9
    • 15th Jan 20, 10:09 AM
    Thanks for your repsonse Misty!

    I've sent what I feel is a stern complaint to the landowner, and have also contacted my local MP to complain and get their backing.

    I really hope it's that easy! haha,. I felt prepared to take on the extra charges that might come about from this, the other day. But that feeling has since subsided, so anxiety is building
    • WilburJaguar
    • By WilburJaguar 15th Jan 20, 10:11 AM
    • 12 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    WilburJaguar
    Thanks for responding TheDeep!

    I've sent off a complaint to my local MP, so hopefully that gives me a bit of standing against Premier ******* park Ltd!
    • WilburJaguar
    • By WilburJaguar 15th Jan 20, 10:20 AM
    • 12 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    WilburJaguar
    Thanks for your message Fruitcake!

    I've not sent off my appeal to Premier Park as yet, so I'll amend it to include points that suggest I've come here to get help - defintely include the section regarding passing this onto the landowner and MP.
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 15th Jan 20, 11:25 AM
    • 1,275 Posts
    • 2,681 Thanks
    MistyZ
    How long was the alleged overstay?
    • WilburJaguar
    • By WilburJaguar 15th Jan 20, 12:26 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    WilburJaguar
    Hi Misty,

    Well.. they failed to state how long the paid period of parking actually was. They've simply stated that the duration of parking was 2:30hrs and that there was an overstay.

    I believe the period of parking paid for by the driver was 2 hours. Cash was paid for the ticket so no receipts or bank statements to show.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 15th Jan 20, 12:32 PM
    • 41,879 Posts
    • 92,818 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    I am slightly worried that you will use up all your ammunition in the initial appeal and have nothing left for PoPLA.
    Everything you mention about the PoFA is normally saved for PoPLA, and the initial blue template appeal is sent as is, unaltered, save for a one liner that the NTK is non PoFA compliant.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • WilburJaguar
    • By WilburJaguar 15th Jan 20, 12:48 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    WilburJaguar
    Hi Fruitcake,

    That makes sense; I'm happy to use the template if my points should be reserved.

    It was my understanding that I should include all relevant points at the time of first appeal, to ensure that they would all be considered when it arrives at POPLA - I think I read that you can't start adding in points midway through an appeal.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 15th Jan 20, 1:07 PM
    • 6,299 Posts
    • 8,354 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    No, thats incorrect.
    First appeal to the PPC and second appeal to POPLA have nothing to do with eachother

    What youre misxing up is that there is a "part 2" to a POPLA appeal, where you comment on the operators case - at *this* point you cannot add new appeal points.
    • WilburJaguar
    • By WilburJaguar 15th Jan 20, 1:26 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    WilburJaguar
    Hi Nosferatu,

    Ahhh got it! Thanks for clarifying. I will omit my points until POPLA stage, and use the template for first appeal to Premier Park.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jan 20, 3:48 AM
    • 80,775 Posts
    • 95,417 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    OK but you do need to know that you won't win at POPLA with an overstay case v Premier Park (DO try anyway). The landowner complaint and MP leaning on them (hopefully) is the way forward.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • WilburJaguar
    • By WilburJaguar 16th Jan 20, 5:56 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 21 Thanks
    WilburJaguar
    Okay, I must admit it's demoralising to hear that but maybe it'll work!.

    I sent a complaint to the assumed landowner, Planet Ice @ Milton Keynes, however they've responded with the following:

    "Good Morning,

    We are not involved in the parking management of this site and unfortunately are not able to become involved in any disputes related to the car park.

    However, if you have received a parking Charge notice (PCN) following a visit to the car park, please follow Premier Parks appeals process, as stated on the back of the PCN, by typing into your web browser:

    appeals.premierpark.co.uk

    Please then complete the contact form on that page within 28 days of receiving your PCN, along with providing any evidence to support your appeal.

    Failure to follow the above procedure may incur further charges from the parking company.

    Thank you for your co-operation."

    What would be the next best course of action? I've asked for the details of the landowner, and to see their grace periods etc. but haven't got a response...
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 16th Jan 20, 5:59 PM
    • 8,027 Posts
    • 9,116 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Local council should be able to tell you who pays the non-domestic business rates or failing that, the Land Registry (but that does cost £3.)
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