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  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Sarah
    • By MSE Sarah 14th Jan 20, 2:48 PM
    • 217Posts
    • 99Thanks
    MSE Sarah
    0 WOW
    Money Moral Dilemma: Should I have refused to pay again for my shopping?
    • #1
    • 14th Jan 20, 2:48 PM
    0 WOW
    Money Moral Dilemma: Should I have refused to pay again for my shopping? 14th Jan 20 at 2:48 PM
    This week's MoneySaver who wants advice asks...

    I paid for lunch at a supermarket self-service till by scanning its payment app, so it automatically charges my credit card and awards me loyalty points. I got the usual instant notifications (from that app and my credit card app) that the payment went through - but the till said it didn't. I alerted staff who insisted I pay again and told me I'd get an automatic refund if there was a double charge. I paid again, but should I have kicked up more of a fuss?

    Unfortunately the MSE team can't always answer money moral dilemma questions as contributions are often emailed in or suggested in person. They are intended to be enjoyed as a point of debate and discussed at face value.

    If you havenít already, join the forum to reply.

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Page 2
    • savvyshopper159
    • By savvyshopper159 15th Jan 20, 9:50 AM
    • 1 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    savvyshopper159
    Pay a human being with cash and get a receipt, you can't go wrong. Don't support this way of paying, then you won't have the problem.
    • margaret eyles
    • By margaret eyles 15th Jan 20, 10:03 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    margaret eyles
    Dial 999 & ask for urgent Police assistance ?? I fail to see the life threatening situation here - itís not a Police matter itís a civil matter & you could be in trouble for wasting police time. Sounds like you spend a lot of time complaining !
    • ben501
    • By ben501 15th Jan 20, 10:05 AM
    • 621 Posts
    • 1,052 Thanks
    ben501
    Kudos for beta testing this new technology. Personally I'll stick to more reliable methods such as physical cash, or actual credit card with paper receipt until they get this new fanged stuff working to my satisfaction (i.e. never).
    • mxxx
    • By mxxx 15th Jan 20, 10:05 AM
    • 83 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    mxxx
    Pay a human being with cash and get a receipt, you can't go wrong. Don't support this way of paying, then you won't have the problem.
    Originally posted by savvyshopper159
    I see a few people suggesting this, while it's true it does often take longer to use an actual checkout cashier and I can only see it's going to get worse as time goes on because more and more places will be pushing people to self service to save costs/maximise profits. While I don't agree with it I don't think we can stop the inevitable.
    • foolsgold77
    • By foolsgold77 15th Jan 20, 10:58 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    foolsgold77
    Is it really worth kicking up a fuss, grow up.
    • Pollycat
    • By Pollycat 15th Jan 20, 11:28 AM
    • 24,514 Posts
    • 65,921 Thanks
    Pollycat
    You were right to pay again. If the store had no record of you having paid and you left the store, you could have been accused of shoplifting. Pay with a more reliable means next time!
    Originally posted by geemac_one
    Wouldn't the proof of payment - from 2 different sources - be sufficient record of payment?
    [CENTER]I paid for lunch at a supermarket self-service till by scanning its payment app, so it automatically charges my credit card and awards me loyalty points. I got the usual instant notifications (from that app and my credit card app) that the payment went through - but the till said it didn't. I alerted staff who insisted I pay again and told me I'd get an automatic refund if there was a double charge. I paid again, but should I have kicked up more of a fuss?
    Originally posted by MSE Sarah
    • NBLondon
    • By NBLondon 15th Jan 20, 11:54 AM
    • 3,275 Posts
    • 16,467 Thanks
    NBLondon
    Wouldn't the proof of payment - from 2 different sources - be sufficient record of payment?
    Originally posted by Pollycat
    A notification from that shop's app should bear more weight than one from the credit card / bank app but it doesn't mean that the shop manager would be able to confirm it (in terms of having the access or the authority to accept or even knowledge of such an app).

    My grandson paid for something at a self-service till, and it said he was £1 short of the amount, even though we knew he'd put the full amount in. he never did get that refund because it was a cash transaction/he was a kid and kids aren't customers / the staff weren't watching. (Tesco)
    Originally posted by tgroom57
    Dodgy pound coin that the till didn't recognise? No way to prove it without getting the till opened and checked and you're right, staff are not likely to do that for a young person.
    "I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
    • pickledonionspaceraider
    • By pickledonionspaceraider 15th Jan 20, 12:11 PM
    • 1,811 Posts
    • 4,248 Thanks
    pickledonionspaceraider
    I find it staggering how so many people have such different opinions but all state them almost as fact, like 'how could you possibly consider any alternative way of dealing with this?'. Guess that's just how the internet is these days, been a long time since I got involved in a forum thread...
    Originally posted by mxxx
    If I could agree a trillion times I would

    It does my head in
    'Entitled' and 'Snowflake' = buzz words, of the passive aggressive..they are not even a 'thing'.
    • pickledonionspaceraider
    • By pickledonionspaceraider 15th Jan 20, 12:12 PM
    • 1,811 Posts
    • 4,248 Thanks
    pickledonionspaceraider
    I was chased out of Frankie and Bennyís after paying on their app and like you ended up paying twice. I ended up with a £30 goodwill gesture for the embarrassment caused and never saw the staff member involved again.
    Originally posted by shirley999
    Oh no. How badly behaved was the staff member? Did they get sacked for making a simple admin error?

    Aside, I think F&B has really changed - used to go regularly until about five years ago
    'Entitled' and 'Snowflake' = buzz words, of the passive aggressive..they are not even a 'thing'.
    • Pollycat
    • By Pollycat 15th Jan 20, 1:37 PM
    • 24,514 Posts
    • 65,921 Thanks
    Pollycat
    A notification from that shop's app should bear more weight than one from the credit card / bank app but it doesn't mean that the shop manager would be able to confirm it (in terms of having the access or the authority to accept or even knowledge of such an app).
    Originally posted by NBLondon
    Couldn't the originator of this 'dilemma' show the transaction on the shop's app?
    TBH, I don't know a lot about this as I either pay by credit card or in cash.

    I was responding to the poster who made the point that the purchaser leaving the shop could have been accused of shoplifting if the shop had no record of the transaction.
    • chimneyman
    • By chimneyman 15th Jan 20, 1:55 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    chimneyman
    No system of payment is perfect. If you always pay by cash, then you always run the risk of dropping a tenner on the floor or being short-changed or having your pocket picked etc etc. If you always pay by card, then you will always run the risk of suffering some kind of system failure.

    My own experience is that, as often as not, system failures work in my favour. Shop floor staff are genuinely powerless and kicking up a fuss at the point of sale just creates bad feeling and wastes everybody's time. But an online complaint often leads to some kind of compensation.

    I always pay by credit card rather than debit card because it allows a bit of time for system failures to sort themselves out before I have to hand over the money. But I always take a receipt and I always keep them and check them against my statement.
    • sxm171
    • By sxm171 15th Jan 20, 2:29 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    sxm171
    This happens more often than not when a card is taken out the pin machine too soon, or left in too long, occasionally If the till freezes. The shop doesn't have your money so they can't give you a refund, your bank will ring fence the money until they are satisfied the shop won't take it. Which they won't so you do have to pay again to complete the transaction and take your products.

    I get the frustration if money is tight but how long before the money is released is down to your bank, some are better than others. This is more noticed now with online banking apps showing pending transaction's immediately.

    But no you shouldn't have kicked up a fuss maybe if not sure ask a manger for an explanation if they are competent they should be able to reassure you, but going in shouting will not help.
    • olesker
    • By olesker 15th Jan 20, 3:50 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    olesker
    Do not pay
    If challenged by a member of staff give them your name, address and telephone number and tell them that, if the charge does not go through, they should contact you. Be polite, but be aware that, since you have prima facia proof that you have paid, you cannot be accused of shoplifting.

    If it turns out that the payment did not go through, ask them for a way to pay without coming in and insist on some sort of documentation of you having cleared the debt.
    • chimneyman
    • By chimneyman 15th Jan 20, 4:04 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    chimneyman
    Since my earlier post, I've been thinking on and I have a funny kind of feeling that the original scenario is just a hypothetical one which MSE has dreamed up in order to stimulate a discussion.

    Many of the replies, including my own, are concerned with the use of cards and card readers but the original question is about the use of in-house payment apps with no physical card use involved.

    The nub of the question seems to me to be 'is a transaction which is recorded on a retailer's in-house app as good a proof of payment as a printed till receipt?'

    The best people to ask would be the retailers themselves. Lots of people don't pick up their printed receipt at the point of payment but they don't seem to have a problem leaving the store unchallenged. Some self-service tills invite you to choose whether or not to provide a paper receipt. I have never used a payment app myself and I always pick up/ask for a paper receipt when I use my credit card.

    On reflection, I think that, in the hypothetical situation which MSE has presented, I would say that the record on the in-house app ought to suffice as proof of payment. But, unless the shop floor staff have been re-trained, then they are likely to continue to insist upon seeing a paper receipt.
    • SallyB21
    • By SallyB21 15th Jan 20, 4:22 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    SallyB21
    Call the police? Are you mad?
    Why would you waste police time, assuming they could be bothered to turn out, on a payment technology problem? The only person likely to be arrested is the person the supermarket is accusing of non-payment!
    • happyinflorida
    • By happyinflorida 15th Jan 20, 4:31 PM
    • 792 Posts
    • 680 Thanks
    happyinflorida
    You haven't said if it came through to your bank a/c once or twice?!

    So were you overcharged, charged double?

    That's my question

    Also why are we all paying for our lunches and food when the Houses of Parliament have just written off over £17,000 because some people won't pay?!! Why haven't they been arrested because we would be if we tried to leave anywhere without paying?
    • Stockie
    • By Stockie 15th Jan 20, 5:22 PM
    • 217 Posts
    • 167 Thanks
    Stockie
    -No it's not hypothetical, this sort of thing happens in real life.
    -Yes you should pay again and wait for the refund of the ringfenced money to come back again.
    -No you shouldn't kick up a fuss at the minimum (or near minimum) wage nobodies with no power who work in the shop.
    If you're enraged with the situation write a snotty e-mail to the shop/bank/card issuers overpaid software developers who like to write software in loads of different languages, none of which seem to communicate with each very well, and then deploy them with out bother to do much of the way of testing to see if they actually work in the real world!

    Source & Bias - Me (a near minimum wage shop nobody for over 10 years, & yes since I experience the same frustration you do with badly written and tested software not working, multiple times a day, you can multiply your rage towards those who write it many,many,many times to get what I feel about crap software developers!)
    Loving the Big Bang Theory!
    My views and opinions are my own and do not represent those of my employer(s) or anyone else
    • JaneHenery
    • By JaneHenery 15th Jan 20, 6:25 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    JaneHenery
    And this is why cash is King....
    • Delbert_Wilkins
    • By Delbert_Wilkins 15th Jan 20, 8:26 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Delbert_Wilkins
    I see a lot of sway towards settling cash in the supermarket to avoid these events but this is not for me. I pay on my credit cards to collect Avios, which is my aim, and it works well along with all my other points making opportunities, albeit getting harder by the day.
    • maisie cat
    • By maisie cat 15th Jan 20, 8:40 PM
    • 800 Posts
    • 983 Thanks
    maisie cat
    This happened to me with £80 of DIY stuff in Wickes, the bank processed it twice and couldn't help recover it. I had to go back to Wickes who thankfully refunded it manually, but it could have been expensive trusting the shop systems
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