Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • kazzamunga
    • By kazzamunga 7th Jan 20, 10:37 AM
    • 63Posts
    • 16Thanks
    kazzamunga
    Can't sell 1 bed flat in Eastcote, Middlesex
    • #1
    • 7th Jan 20, 10:37 AM
    Can't sell 1 bed flat in Eastcote, Middlesex 7th Jan 20 at 10:37 AM
    Hi All,

    Writing here in frustration, 5 months into trying to sell our one-bed flat in a desirable estate, fed up with the estate agents' crap advice.

    The flat is on Rightmove, it's the only one on at £305k in Eastcote (can't post link).

    Thoughts welcome.

    We bought it in 2014, and it's been a long and painful process. Basically my mother had some money that she wanted to invest in property, but didn't want to get a mortgage in her name, so I sort of got railroaded into taking on the mortgage, and the idea was that we would split the equity between us.

    Don't even enter into business with your parents, people. Although we originally agreed it was an investment, my parents signed me into a deal that said that all three of us had to agree to sell it. Which ultimately meant that my parents vetoed anything I said. In 2016 the area was literally a named property hotspot in London, and the prices went up astronomically, but my mum didn't want to sell. Eventually, because my boyfriend also wasn't allowed to move in, we moved out of London to rent, while my brother moved into the flat, but I couldn't buy another place because the mortgage was in my name and I couldn't sell, so I'm still renting now.

    Brexit happened amidst all of this, and then my mum unexpectedly got cancer, and long story short, within a year she died from a very rare reaction to the chemo treatment sad. I know I moan about it above, but I miss her a lot and am so annoyed that this situation made our last few years quite difficult and led to a lot of disagreements.

    Obviously with the family reeling from what happened in October 2018, we couldn't think about selling for another while after that, but we all agreed by August 2019 to put it on the market. And since then, like, zilch.

    We chose a crap estate agent who, despite only managing to get one viewing at a time that was supposedly quite busy, did manage to get us an offer from an investor that seemed to be a personal friend of theirs, but then after 8 weeks of our solicitors dealing with them they said they had to change solicitors and start the process again. When we got annoyed about this the estate agents stupidly put the flat back on the market, and then the buyers pulled out. We changed agents, and they've only managed to get us a handful of viewings since November (yeah, I know, it's a quiet time of year, but plenty of other places are selling).

    My mum chose the flat and she was pretty good at choosing places that were desirable. It's in a nice estate, and apparently the 2 beds are selling like hotcakes but no one wants the one beds. It doesn't make sense to me at all - we've already dropped our price and it is substantially (more than 10%) lower than its peak price in 2016, but we keep getting told that we have to cut it more if we want people to even bother coming to view it! It doesn't make sense to me, as it's a nice flat, in a nice area, and surely there are some people who want 1 bed flats and can't afford 2 beds. Surely there is always a market for 1 beds for people who just want to get onto the housing ladder.

    Very very frustrating, sorry for the rant, but some insight from anyone would be great - what the markets are like in your areas, what you know about selling one beds, etc.

    Thanks!

    K
Page 7
    • kazzamunga
    • By kazzamunga 10th Jan 20, 1:39 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    kazzamunga
    Also just realized as much of the equity was provided by you mother there will be an element of a gift(maybe gift with reservation) into the house/trust that would have also needed to be accounted for during estate administration.

    This may not have resulted in any IHT but will have resulted in a reduction in any transferable nil rate band for your dads estate.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    agreed - we knew about this.
    • kazzamunga
    • By kazzamunga 10th Jan 20, 1:42 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    kazzamunga
    I'm being extremely helpful, but possibly I overestimated your knowledge of CGT, so you can't understand what I wrote.
    Originally posted by GDB2222
    You basically wrote nothing until after I wrote that, so it's hard to tell
    But it's true I know nothing about CGT, nor did I claim to. Thanks for the info.
    • Crashy Time
    • By Crashy Time 11th Jan 20, 3:26 PM
    • 8,790 Posts
    • 3,074 Thanks
    Crashy Time
    Where did I say more tax?
    Originally posted by GDB2222
    Do you think it will be less tax?
    • GDB2222
    • By GDB2222 11th Jan 20, 5:22 PM
    • 16,269 Posts
    • 84,106 Thanks
    GDB2222
    Do you think it will be less tax?
    Originally posted by Crashy Time
    Yes, definitely. For dad. I wrote, in relation to CGT: The base price for your dad's half gets reset to the value when your mum died.
    Last edited by GDB2222; 11-01-2020 at 5:54 PM.
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
    • kazzamunga
    • By kazzamunga 14th Jan 20, 6:27 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    kazzamunga
    Ok, photos taken so let's see where that takes us - probably nowhere, haha.



    Another curve ball to throw into the mix. Ignore all the stuff I wrote above about my own experience with the deed of trust in what follows - me and my brother are very different characters, and he would be perfectly happy to be in the same situation as I was, because he wants to stay in London and is much more easy going and less bothered about independence than me. So I'm asking purely whether the following is theoretically possible.



    So a relative came forward today who has quite a lot of money in savings and is fed up with it making no interest. I mean obviously the flat isn't doing great, but it's still done better than bank accounts over the last five years. He proposed that he and my dad go together to put in a large deposit, and then my brother takes out a mortgage on the rest. I think the figures would go like this:



    Current arrangement - flat was £245 when I bought it, £115k was my mum's deposit, £130k was my mortgage. When the flat sells, the equity and the deposit will be divided pretty much equally between me and my two siblings.



    The new proposal is: We sell the flat for 286 to my brother, which is as per the Zoopla estimate. He has a £120k mortgage, my relative and dad put in £120k between them, and the difference is made up by the deposit that my brother would have got back from the flat. Obviously that's the sticking point, so I think it comes down to whether the deposit can be beefed up by c. 40k for a handful of days, while the flat sale goes through and then my brother's share will go back to the person that puts that extra money in.



    Obviously it's ridiculously complicated and could have implications - tax, deed of trust and all that jazz - but tell me, does it actually work in terms of the numbers?
    Last edited by kazzamunga; 14-01-2020 at 6:32 PM.
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 14th Jan 20, 8:00 PM
    • 6,972 Posts
    • 11,233 Thanks
    Cakeguts
    Ok, photos taken so let's see where that takes us - probably nowhere, haha.



    Another curve ball to throw into the mix. Ignore all the stuff I wrote above about my own experience with the deed of trust in what follows - me and my brother are very different characters, and he would be perfectly happy to be in the same situation as I was, because he wants to stay in London and is much more easy going and less bothered about independence than me. So I'm asking purely whether the following is theoretically possible.



    So a relative came forward today who has quite a lot of money in savings and is fed up with it making no interest. I mean obviously the flat isn't doing great, but it's still done better than bank accounts over the last five years. He proposed that he and my dad go together to put in a large deposit, and then my brother takes out a mortgage on the rest. I think the figures would go like this:



    Current arrangement - flat was £245 when I bought it, £115k was my mum's deposit, £130k was my mortgage. When the flat sells, the equity and the deposit will be divided pretty much equally between me and my two siblings.



    The new proposal is: We sell the flat for 286 to my brother, which is as per the Zoopla estimate. He has a £120k mortgage, my relative and dad put in £120k between them, and the difference is made up by the deposit that my brother would have got back from the flat. Obviously that's the sticking point, so I think it comes down to whether the deposit can be beefed up by c. 40k for a handful of days, while the flat sale goes through and then my brother's share will go back to the person that puts that extra money in.



    Obviously it's ridiculously complicated and could have implications - tax, deed of trust and all that jazz - but tell me, does it actually work in terms of the numbers?
    Originally posted by kazzamunga

    So you are happy to sell your brother an overpriced flat? If I was your brother I would run away from this arrangement fast.
    • GDB2222
    • By GDB2222 14th Jan 20, 8:07 PM
    • 16,269 Posts
    • 84,106 Thanks
    GDB2222
    So you are happy to sell your brother an overpriced flat? If I was your brother I would run away from this arrangement fast.
    Originally posted by Cakeguts
    It's not had much interest at £305k, but it does not follow that £286k is overpriced. How do you reach that conclusion?

    However, I really don't think the Zoopla valuation can be relied on at all. I suggest getting a surveyor to value it.
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
    • kazzamunga
    • By kazzamunga 14th Jan 20, 8:15 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    kazzamunga
    Yeah @cakeguts it's really not overpriced. I don't want to get into that highly subjective conversation again.

    Pretty confident that a surveyor would say similar, so sure, that's a good idea.

    I reiterate - I'm asking about the mechanics of the transaction.
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 14th Jan 20, 8:15 PM
    • 4,819 Posts
    • 7,803 Thanks
    bouicca21
    Iím a bit late in on this one, but I think the target market might be a single retired person rather than a young professional. Ground floor plus parking makes it attractive to someone downsizing.

    I no longer know the Ruislip/Eastcote market, having decamped many years ago to the other side of London (and crossed the River), but I do know that the market generally in London is volatile. Some properties are going instantly for near asking price, others just hang. Also when the market is in post-bubble state, itís the 1 bed flats that tend to take the hit.
    • GDB2222
    • By GDB2222 14th Jan 20, 8:17 PM
    • 16,269 Posts
    • 84,106 Thanks
    GDB2222
    Ok, photos taken so let's see where that takes us - probably nowhere, haha.



    Another curve ball to throw into the mix. Ignore all the stuff I wrote above about my own experience with the deed of trust in what follows - me and my brother are very different characters, and he would be perfectly happy to be in the same situation as I was, because he wants to stay in London and is much more easy going and less bothered about independence than me. So I'm asking purely whether the following is theoretically possible.



    So a relative came forward today who has quite a lot of money in savings and is fed up with it making no interest. I mean obviously the flat isn't doing great, but it's still done better than bank accounts over the last five years. He proposed that he and my dad go together to put in a large deposit, and then my brother takes out a mortgage on the rest. I think the figures would go like this:



    Current arrangement - flat was £245 when I bought it, £115k was my mum's deposit, £130k was my mortgage. When the flat sells, the equity and the deposit will be divided pretty much equally between me and my two siblings.



    The new proposal is: We sell the flat for 286 to my brother, which is as per the Zoopla estimate. He has a £120k mortgage, my relative and dad put in £120k between them, and the difference is made up by the deposit that my brother would have got back from the flat. Obviously that's the sticking point, so I think it comes down to whether the deposit can be beefed up by c. 40k for a handful of days, while the flat sale goes through and then my brother's share will go back to the person that puts that extra money in.



    Obviously it's ridiculously complicated and could have implications - tax, deed of trust and all that jazz - but tell me, does it actually work in terms of the numbers?
    Originally posted by kazzamunga
    Let me check the sums. On the assumption you sell for £286k, this gets divided as follows:
    You: £130k + £52k
    Your brother: £52k
    Other sib: £52k

    That is funded by:
    Your dad plus other reli: £120k
    Your brother: £166k (£120k mortgage + £46k from above)

    That all adds up, but how will the property value be apportioned?

    SDLT will be at the rate for a property worth £286k plus the 3% surcharge. And there will be legal costs. So, there's quite a bit of money to find. I assume your brother does not pay SDLT on the £52k worth he already owns.
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
    • kazzamunga
    • By kazzamunga 14th Jan 20, 8:21 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    kazzamunga
    My bro is first time buyer and it's below 300k so no sdlt for him, I guess? I said 46 because I know we're not going to get the full 52 each once estate agent and legal fees and potential deed of trust costs are deducted
    • GDB2222
    • By GDB2222 14th Jan 20, 8:23 PM
    • 16,269 Posts
    • 84,106 Thanks
    GDB2222
    "and the difference is made up by the deposit that my brother would have got back from the flat. Obviously that's the sticking point, so I think it comes down to whether the deposit can be beefed up by c. 40k for a handful of days, while the flat sale goes through and then my brother's share will go back to the person that puts that extra money in."

    I think that's wrong. The extra cash is not needed. It just gets netted off by the solicitor when the sale goes through. In other words you and your siblings are paid out as follows:
    You: £130k + £52k
    Your brother: £6k (plus £46k ploughed into the purchase)
    Other sib: £52k

    As I said above, the buyers will need SDLT as well, which is quite a lot.
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
    • GDB2222
    • By GDB2222 14th Jan 20, 8:25 PM
    • 16,269 Posts
    • 84,106 Thanks
    GDB2222
    My bro is first time buyer and it's below 300k so no sdlt for him, I guess? I said 46 because I know we're not going to get the full 52 each once estate agent and legal fees and potential deed of trust costs are deducted
    Originally posted by kazzamunga
    You will pay the estate agent? Does he have sole selling rights?

    I don't understand SDLT for joint transactions like this. Sorry.
    No reliance should be placed on the above! Absolutely none, do you hear?
    • kazzamunga
    • By kazzamunga 14th Jan 20, 8:29 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    kazzamunga
    Ok thanks a lot that's really helpful, will look into the sdlt implications.
    • kazzamunga
    • By kazzamunga 14th Jan 20, 8:59 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    kazzamunga
    I think so re estate agent, will double check though.
    • diggingdude
    • By diggingdude 14th Jan 20, 10:06 PM
    • 1,475 Posts
    • 1,972 Thanks
    diggingdude
    Is brother really happy to do this? Has he thought about what he would do in 2 years time once Brexit and Megxit are done when family want money back? madness
    House owner as of 27.3.2019
    • Lover of Lycra
    • By Lover of Lycra 14th Jan 20, 10:11 PM
    • 826 Posts
    • 1,773 Thanks
    Lover of Lycra
    I'm not saying it's impossible but I can't imagine the pool of lenders willing to have one legal owner (who is responsible for paying the mortgage) and three beneficial owners is that big. It's something your brother will need to look into sooner rather than later.
    • kazzamunga
    • By kazzamunga 15th Jan 20, 8:30 AM
    • 63 Posts
    • 16 Thanks
    kazzamunga
    Iím a bit late in on this one, but I think the target market might be a single retired person rather than a young professional. Ground floor plus parking makes it attractive to someone downsizing.

    I no longer know the Ruislip/Eastcote market, having decamped many years ago to the other side of London (and crossed the River), but I do know that the market generally in London is volatile. Some properties are going instantly for near asking price, others just hang. Also when the market is in post-bubble state, itís the 1 bed flats that tend to take the hit.
    Originally posted by bouicca21
    I agree - and I think what we're coming up against is that retired people aren't very good at downsizing (if you're used to a house can you make a home out of a one-bed flat?), so they view a one-bed, have the money for a two-bed so think why not.

    Definitely volatile - in fact, I'm finding that everywhere I look. For no reason at all, one house will be on the market for less than a week, and another will be on for 6 months. And it defies all the usual logic. I saw a house that needed a complete gutting sell in a couple of months because it had a decent garden, but another one that was a much nicer house hung around for 6 months and dropped its price twice. I also saw a 3 bed house that had been made into a 2 bed (which seems pretty undesirable according to most sources) sell within a week. The decor was nice and stuff, but yeah.

    I think some people have been lucky, and we definitely haven't. But I certainly wouldn't see a 1-bed flat as a viable investment option in the future, so, lesson learned!
    • Cakeguts
    • By Cakeguts 15th Jan 20, 9:06 AM
    • 6,972 Posts
    • 11,233 Thanks
    Cakeguts
    I don't understand all the extra work in trying to get this flat to stay in the family. If you are willing to sell the flat to your brother for £286k which you say is a "fair" price why not just sell it on the open market for £286k and then your brother gets to choose his own next flat? I don't understand the emotional attachment to this particular property? Your brother is only ever going to get his share whether it is sold to him or whether it is sold to someone else. This does not benefit your brother in any way apart from not having to move it will just shift a problem flat onto him.
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 15th Jan 20, 9:18 AM
    • 2,543 Posts
    • 3,191 Thanks
    need an answer
    I don't understand all the extra work in trying to get this flat to stay in the family. If you are willing to sell the flat to your brother for £286k which you say is a "fair" price why not just sell it on the open market for £286k and then your brother gets to choose his own next flat? I don't understand the emotional attachment to this particular property? Your brother is only ever going to get his share whether it is sold to him or whether it is sold to someone else. This does not benefit your brother in any way apart from not having to move it will just shift a problem flat onto him.
    Originally posted by Cakeguts
    My view is its Dad who wants to keep the property and potentially as hes a senior member of the group his view carries more weight.

    I totally get emotional attachment,I've well documented on the board over the years that one of my rental properties is exactly that,an emotional attachment an expensive hobby,call it what you like.

    In this situation dad cant support the property on his own,TBH the family never really could support it individually,it always had to be financed collectively for whatever reason it was purchased in the first place.

    It does seem as if the plan now involves shifting the mortgage from one sibling to the more compliant one which again seems to suggest a desire to keep it in the family rather than sell to an unconnected person on the open market..

    If the family are truly willing to accept an offer of around £286k then in some ways a £295k asking price is still too high to generate a lot of interest...maybe they should have bitten the bullet and gone for £290k.

    Playing devils advocate here...but I wonder if the offer came in at £286k from a private buyer if it genuinely would get progressed or in the back of someones mind that's the price that's the price for a family transaction.
    in S T 1 F 1
    out S 2 T F 2

    2017-32 2018 -33 2019 -21
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

91Posts Today

1,230Users online

Martin's Twitter