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  • FIRST POST
    • Steve123456789
    • By Steve123456789 21st Oct 19, 12:01 PM
    • 66Posts
    • 22Thanks
    Steve123456789
    TV Licencing Bullies
    • #1
    • 21st Oct 19, 12:01 PM
    TV Licencing Bullies 21st Oct 19 at 12:01 PM
    I have no legal obligation to tell these bullies that I don't need a TV licence, do I?


    To do this, I have to provide my name. They have no legal right to this information do they?


    I don't get why they do this. Other companies don't threaten to sue you when you don't buy their service.
Page 1
    • Neil Jones
    • By Neil Jones 21st Oct 19, 12:39 PM
    • 3,299 Posts
    • 2,416 Thanks
    Neil Jones
    • #2
    • 21st Oct 19, 12:39 PM
    • #2
    • 21st Oct 19, 12:39 PM
    On the contrary:
    https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/telling-us-you-dont-need-a-tv-licence

    With regards to name, well its hardly going to be a state secret considering if you're registered to vote and you've lived at your current address for more than a year it'll be on the electoral register?

    And you're not "buying" a service. You get the TV signals regardless of whether you buy a licence or not and there is strictly speaking nothing to stop you using a TV without one. Just that if you get caught using it and you needed one, you can be expected to get your chequebook out for an amount that may be up to 6x the cost of the licence in the first place.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 21st Oct 19, 12:48 PM
    • 14,035 Posts
    • 17,629 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    • #3
    • 21st Oct 19, 12:48 PM
    • #3
    • 21st Oct 19, 12:48 PM
    I have no legal obligation to tell these bullies that I don't need a TV licence, do I?


    To do this, I have to provide my name. They have no legal right to this information do they?


    I don't get why they do this. Other companies don't threaten to sue you when you don't buy their service.
    Originally posted by Steve123456789
    If you stand up to them they fade into the background pretty fast in my experience. Things like PACE and Human Rights Act are relevant to what they do.

    In terms of getting them to back off completely from their entire target population, that's quite hard. What it requires is a well-funded Judicial Review, but I don't see anyone/any group staking that much money on a situation that is resolved relatively easily on a personal basis.

    It's sad, and it's one of a number of public policy issues that undermine our civil society, but there it is.

    The TV Licensing "No Licence Needed" policy is not law, and the policy document contains a number of elements that are contentious on that basis. It's worrying that (assuming that this is a key document used in communication with the Public and its own staff) it doesn't recognise the somewhat complex legal situation that TV Licensing has created.

    There is no requirement to comply with that policy, to complete the online form (which is not really a "declaration" in a legal sense) or to provide your name.
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 21-10-2019 at 1:10 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

    Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Steve123456789
    • By Steve123456789 21st Oct 19, 1:18 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    Steve123456789
    • #4
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:18 PM
    • #4
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:18 PM
    On the contrary:
    https://www.tvlicensing.co.uk/check-if-you-need-one/topics/telling-us-you-dont-need-a-tv-licence

    With regards to name, well its hardly going to be a state secret considering if you're registered to vote and you've lived at your current address for more than a year it'll be on the electoral register?

    And you're not "buying" a service. You get the TV signals regardless of whether you buy a licence or not and there is strictly speaking nothing to stop you using a TV without one. Just that if you get caught using it and you needed one, you can be expected to get your chequebook out for an amount that may be up to 6x the cost of the licence in the first place.
    Originally posted by Neil Jones

    But I won't get caught watching live TV or iPlayer, because I don't. I honestly don't need a TV licence.


    I have a dish on the side of my house and I think there's an aerial in the loft, but these were there when we moved in and I haven't ever plugged anything into them.


    I just resent the fact that I am expected to "declare" that I don't need a licence.
    If they want to provide the service for free, then demand EVERYONE pays after the fact, that's their funeral. This shouldn't be made into my issue.


    And how would they get their hands on the electoral register? Who are they to do that?
    • silverwhistle
    • By silverwhistle 21st Oct 19, 1:29 PM
    • 2,820 Posts
    • 4,271 Thanks
    silverwhistle
    • #5
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:29 PM
    • #5
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:29 PM
    I really wouldn't worry about it. Just ignore them. The most time or attention they get from me is occasionally posting on here when I notice an appropriate post. I've long ago learnt that when they ask in a window envelope "Will you be in on the 17th October" (their latest missive) they won't actually be calling.
    • moneyhelpuser5
    • By moneyhelpuser5 21st Oct 19, 1:31 PM
    • 31 Posts
    • 58 Thanks
    moneyhelpuser5
    • #6
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:31 PM
    • #6
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:31 PM
    Neil Jones is completely wrong here.
    If they come to the door, say "No thank you" and close it. Nothing else. As long as you're not watching live TV/Iplayer they have no right.
    There are other dedicated internet forms for support on people who don't need TV licenses, please check them out.
    • Mutton Geoff
    • By Mutton Geoff 21st Oct 19, 1:37 PM
    • 1,887 Posts
    • 2,228 Thanks
    Mutton Geoff
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:37 PM
    • #7
    • 21st Oct 19, 1:37 PM
    Never give your name to them. And ignore all correspondance as they will find it hard to take “The Occupier” to court for anything.

    As mentioned, plenty of specialist sites and You Tubes on the topic.
    Compensation/Refunds - £4,655 | Stooz Profits - £7,636 | Quidco - £4,365 | Tax Avoidance - £107,000
    All with a big thank you to Martin and MSE.com from Mutton Geoff!
    • Steve123456789
    • By Steve123456789 25th Oct 19, 10:12 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    Steve123456789
    • #8
    • 25th Oct 19, 10:12 AM
    • #8
    • 25th Oct 19, 10:12 AM
    Shall I send the letters back?


    "return to sender" ?
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 25th Oct 19, 11:28 AM
    • 14,035 Posts
    • 17,629 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    • #9
    • 25th Oct 19, 11:28 AM
    • #9
    • 25th Oct 19, 11:28 AM
    Shall I send the letters back?


    "return to sender" ?
    Originally posted by Steve123456789
    I'd suggest not doing that. Just bin them.

    You can use "cease and desist" with them, which usually stops the letters. Or you can make a official complaint, which also stops them. (Simply by telling them that you are feeling harassed puts the legal onus on them to stop harassing you).
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

    Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Steve123456789
    • By Steve123456789 25th Oct 19, 12:45 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 22 Thanks
    Steve123456789
    I'd suggest not doing that. Just bin them.

    You can use "cease and desist" with them, which usually stops the letters. Or you can make a official complaint, which also stops them. (Simply by telling them that you are feeling harassed puts the legal onus on them to stop harassing you).
    Originally posted by Cornucopia

    How do you make an official complaint without giving your name or email address?
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 25th Oct 19, 1:17 PM
    • 14,035 Posts
    • 17,629 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    How do you make an official complaint without giving your name or email address?
    Originally posted by Steve123456789
    You'll need your address or "licence" reference number to get the letters stopped. I don't think you need to provide your name, though. There are several legal options, and in some cases TVL has confirmed that a name is not required.
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

    Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Fortyfoot
    • By Fortyfoot 31st Oct 19, 4:12 PM
    • 1,872 Posts
    • 916 Thanks
    Fortyfoot
    I get one of these every month, they contain threats. I don't bother opening them now, I just bin them.

    I have written, email, to my MP about this and removal of the licence for golden oldies and told him that as the Conservatives gave the BBC permission to do this I will never vote Conservative again.

    Withdrawal of bus passes will be next.

    Tell them nothing but do not break the law!

    Fortyfoot
    • metrobus
    • By metrobus 31st Oct 19, 9:25 PM
    • 1,544 Posts
    • 780 Thanks
    metrobus
    I get one of these every month, they contain threats. I don't bother opening them now, I just bin them.

    I have written, email, to my MP about this and removal of the licence for golden oldies and told him that as the Conservatives gave the BBC permission to do this I will never vote Conservative again.

    Withdrawal of bus passes will be next.

    Tell them nothing but do not break the law!

    Fortyfoot
    Originally posted by Fortyfoot
    Wrong the Government gave them the BBC powers to enforce the fee on iplayer users and increase the fee in line with inflation in return for them the BBC to keep the concession to the over 75s,something the BBC have gone back on .

    On the original point just say nothing to them and shut the door,bin every letter you get from them.
    Plenty of videos on the net on how to deal with these people.
    Last edited by metrobus; 31-10-2019 at 9:28 PM.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 31st Oct 19, 9:31 PM
    • 14,035 Posts
    • 17,629 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    ... in return for them the BBC to keep the concession to the over 75s,something the BBC have gone back on .
    Originally posted by metrobus
    The agreement was that the BBC would take on responsibility for the decision as to whether over 75s would continue to receive free Licences.

    They are within their rights under the agreement to decide not to continue with free Licences, although it is wrong of them to blame the Government, since they agreed with the original proposal.
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

    Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • phillw
    • By phillw 1st Nov 19, 5:06 PM
    • 3,201 Posts
    • 2,651 Thanks
    phillw
    although it is wrong of them to blame the Government, since they agreed with the original proposal.
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    It's also wrong to blame the BBC for scrapping the free TV license, because the Government knew it was going to happen when they signed it over.
    • Fairyliquid
    • By Fairyliquid 14th Jan 20, 9:48 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Fairyliquid
    Background: sick of the fare on BBC, their useless current affairs and news, no interest in dancing/sport/cookery/personalities/soaps I wrote to TV licencing and said I did not need a licence. What I understand about the general TV licencing law/rules is that you must NOT watch any live broadcast or watch something that was recorded live. The fact that the TV is plugged in is not relevant (and anyway it gets over the air updates that way).

    So, in this day and age, I have apps on my Fire TV stick that allows me to watch France24, some of it is live and other bits pre-recorded. I can also on YouTube watch a feed from the Space Station live. Does that count? Am I forbidden to watch that? I don't see how the TV Licence can cover all and everything from around the globe. It does not impact on the production costs and infrastructure to support broadcasting in the UK.

    I would define it (if it was up to me) as anything being transmitted by terrestrial aerials that has a live feed. This covers the PVR aspect - you cannot record and then watch without a licence.

    All this is academic, as without 'packet sniffing' there is no way of knowing what you are watching fed down the internet.

    I have managed quite well with catch-up, YouTube and various miscellaneous channels since the start of the year.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 14th Jan 20, 10:13 AM
    • 14,035 Posts
    • 17,629 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    What I understand about the general TV licencing law/rules is that you must NOT watch any live broadcast or watch something that was recorded live.
    Originally posted by Fairyliquid
    Unfortunately, this is a common misconception (not helped by TV Licensing themselves using the misleading term "Live TV"). What they actually mean is Broadcast TV - that is any TV channel that can be received using a Satellite dish, Terrestrial aerial or Cable TV. It also includes the Internet streamed versions of those channels.

    So, in this day and age, I have apps on my Fire TV stick that allows me to watch France24, some of it is live and other bits pre-recorded.
    You cannot watch France24 without a TV Licence because it is a Broadcast TV channel.

    I can also on YouTube watch a feed from the Space Station live. Does that count? Am I forbidden to watch that?
    No - that is fine because it isn't a broadcast channel (assuming that it isn't).
    I'm a Board Guide on the The Money Savers Arms, Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there.

    Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • Fairyliquid
    • By Fairyliquid 15th Jan 20, 2:40 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Fairyliquid
    Thanks,
    Unfortunately, this is a common misconception (not helped by TV Licensing themselves using the misleading term "Live TV"). What they actually mean is Broadcast TV - that is any TV channel that can be received using a Satellite dish, Terrestrial aerial or Cable TV. It also includes the Internet streamed versions of those channels.


    You cannot watch France24 without a TV Licence because it is a Broadcast TV channel.


    No - that is fine because it isn't a broadcast channel (assuming that it isn't).
    Originally posted by Cornucopia
    But France24 has catchup programmes and documentaries so no different to ITV Hub? There is also the live channel of course, understand that is off limits.

    Really depends on the definition of 'Broadcast TV'. The way you (not personally of course) have defined it means almost anything you want it to mean. I still say that if it's not through an aerial then it's not broadcast. BBC3 is done exclusively through the iplayer anyway.

    [The original detector vans worked on the side effects of the receiver TV tuning that required a local oscillator which was offset from the channel frequency by a fixed distance (standard for each country). It was that local osc that they could pick up and directional aerials could find the possible location. DTV works using multiplexors that share many channels on each frequency. As radio and data services are in the mix it is difficult to know what is being received I would suspect that the spill over of signals is much less.]
    • oldernonethewiser
    • By oldernonethewiser 15th Jan 20, 2:48 PM
    • 514 Posts
    • 569 Thanks
    oldernonethewiser
    Thanks,

    But France24 has catchup programmes and documentaries so no different to ITV Hub? There is also the live channel of course, understand that is off limits.

    Really depends on the definition of 'Broadcast TV'. The way you (not personally of course) have defined it means almost anything you want it to mean. I still say that if it's not through an aerial then it's not broadcast. BBC3 is done exclusively through the iplayer anyway.

    [The original detector vans worked on the side effects of the receiver TV tuning that required a local oscillator which was offset from the channel frequency by a fixed distance (standard for each country). It was that local osc that they could pick up and directional aerials could find the possible location. DTV works using multiplexors that share many channels on each frequency. As radio and data services are in the mix it is difficult to know what is being received I would suspect that the spill over of signals is much less.]
    Originally posted by Fairyliquid

    You could try arguing that if you wish, but you would be wrong.
    • MEM62
    • By MEM62 15th Jan 20, 3:32 PM
    • 2,918 Posts
    • 2,597 Thanks
    MEM62
    How do you make an official complaint without giving your name or email address?
    Originally posted by Steve123456789
    You are making an issue when there isn't one. Just go online and declare that you don't need a TV License and that will be the end of it. The assumption that you do unless you advise otherwise I would imagine is based on the fact that almost all households do require a license. Therefore, as one of the exceptions, it makes sense that you declare as such.
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