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    • domdeath
    • By domdeath 20th Oct 19, 8:54 AM
    • 21Posts
    • 1Thanks
    domdeath
    Leaking oil sump
    • #1
    • 20th Oct 19, 8:54 AM
    Leaking oil sump 20th Oct 19 at 8:54 AM
    I bought a second hand car from a second hand dealership about 28 days ago and I discovered a problem with it yesterday.

    I hadn't trusted the garage had done an oil change so decided I'd do one myself however when I removed the undertray of the car, I noticed oil everywhere (but crucially it had only leaked onto the undertray and isn't visible from an external inspection of the car, like you woudk do when buying a second hand car). I narrowed this down to a leaking sump gasket and it looks like the sump has been hit (it has a dent in it). I realise this is a relatively simple fix for a garage (well the dealership) but I am concerned the damage may go further and I can't tell because its hidden by the oil.

    As I am within my 30 days I believe it is within my consumer rights to demand a full refund however I know the garage will of course dispute this and probably try and say I am the one who has damaged the car. I know the onus is on the supplier to prove it wasn't damaged when I bought it but I have a feeling they will use excuses like it passed its mot (but the oil isn't visible from the outside). What is acceptable by way of proof it wasn't leaking when they sold it?

    I suspect if I want my money back I will end up having to go to court for it which is a lot of faff but then again, if the damage does go further, it could be very expensive and a lot of effort for me further down the line.

    I also bought the car across 2 credit cards so could claim back from either of those if necessary...

    What does everyone recommend as a way forward? Do I go back and demand a refund and persue all avenues possible or do I accept an offer of a repair? I realise I am close to the 30 day deadline so unfortunately need to decide today so I can contact them tomorrow!

    Thanks in advance!
Page 1
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 20th Oct 19, 9:05 AM
    • 26,376 Posts
    • 26,276 Thanks
    AdrianC
    • #2
    • 20th Oct 19, 9:05 AM
    • #2
    • 20th Oct 19, 9:05 AM
    How old is the car? You say "it passed its MOT" - so it must be at least 3yo.

    Consumer rights on used goods are tempered by reasonable expectations for goods of that age/relative price/apparent quality.
    Is an oil leak from a sump gasket unreasonable to expect from a 6mo car? Yes. From a 16yo 1k one? No.
    How serious is this leak, for you not to have noticed the level fall within 28 days, and for the leaked oil not to be getting beyond the undertray?

    As you say, you would also need to prove that the damage was present at the time of purchase - not easy, when it seems to be impact damage from debris in the road. But how was the sump damaged while the undertray wasn't?

    One thing's for certain - there won't be any material damage inside the sump. Not if the engine's running...

    How much is a replacement sump and gasket going to cost?
    • domdeath
    • By domdeath 20th Oct 19, 9:28 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    domdeath
    • #3
    • 20th Oct 19, 9:28 AM
    • #3
    • 20th Oct 19, 9:28 AM
    The car is 5 years old with 46000 miles on the clock so I don't think it is reasonable for a sump to start leaking at that point.

    The leak seems fairly serious, I think the only reason it's not come out of the undertray is because there is a load of foam in the undertray, presumably put there for sound insulation with the secondary benefit of catching leaks!

    From what I understand the garage has to prove the leak wasn't there, rather than vise versa.

    Good to have some reassurance the damage is unlikely to have gone further than the sump though, thanks!
    • Inner Zone
    • By Inner Zone 20th Oct 19, 10:00 AM
    • 2,681 Posts
    • 1,615 Thanks
    Inner Zone
    • #4
    • 20th Oct 19, 10:00 AM
    • #4
    • 20th Oct 19, 10:00 AM
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=6060796
    • loskie
    • By loskie 20th Oct 19, 10:06 AM
    • 1,677 Posts
    • 1,044 Thanks
    loskie
    • #5
    • 20th Oct 19, 10:06 AM
    • #5
    • 20th Oct 19, 10:06 AM
    If its a serious leak during your weekly checks have you noticed the oil levels dropping? If not well its not that serious.

    I think that he garage may well be within their rights to say you caused the damage.
    "If" they did a pre sale service its is likely the oil was sucked out and so they did not investigate inside the undertray.

    Are you just looking for a get out clause?
    • EdGasketTheSecond
    • By EdGasketTheSecond 20th Oct 19, 4:09 PM
    • 1,415 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    EdGasketTheSecond
    • #6
    • 20th Oct 19, 4:09 PM
    • #6
    • 20th Oct 19, 4:09 PM
    Are you sure its not the crankshaft oil seal leaking? Once that goes then oil gets everywhere. It's a more likely candidate than the sump gasket which rarely goes.
    • domdeath
    • By domdeath 20th Oct 19, 5:03 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    domdeath
    • #7
    • 20th Oct 19, 5:03 PM
    • #7
    • 20th Oct 19, 5:03 PM
    Loskie, the undertray has a load of something absorbent in it so very little oil had made it to the ground so far and therefore hadn't spotted in simple visual checks. I suppose you could say I'm looking for a get out clause as I know while I'm in the 30 days I have the potential of washing my hands of this car, if I think it's going to be nothing but trouble in my ownership time.

    Ed, my knowledge of oil systems isn't perfect so I suppose it could be the crankshaft oil seal. I just know when I looked under the car there was lots of oil around the sump pan, the subframe and the undertray. I can't see any oil from above. I think your comment reinforces my concerns with this car potentially being problematic in the future...
    • SHAFT
    • By SHAFT 20th Oct 19, 7:52 PM
    • 526 Posts
    • 349 Thanks
    SHAFT
    • #8
    • 20th Oct 19, 7:52 PM
    • #8
    • 20th Oct 19, 7:52 PM
    Loskie, the undertray has a load of something absorbent in it so very little oil had made it to the ground so far and therefore hadn't spotted in simple visual checks. I suppose you could say I'm looking for a get out clause as I know while I'm in the 30 days I have the potential of washing my hands of this car, if I think it's going to be nothing but trouble in my ownership time.

    Ed, my knowledge of oil systems isn't perfect so I suppose it could be the crankshaft oil seal. I just know when I looked under the car there was lots of oil around the sump pan, the subframe and the undertray. I can't see any oil from above. I think your comment reinforces my concerns with this car potentially being problematic in the future...
    Originally posted by domdeath
    So the oil level hasn't dropped in the time you've owned it?

    Unless it's a BMW the dipsticks a good indicator.
    • domdeath
    • By domdeath 20th Oct 19, 8:30 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    domdeath
    • #9
    • 20th Oct 19, 8:30 PM
    • #9
    • 20th Oct 19, 8:30 PM
    Unfortunately no physical dipstick, only a digital one (and it's not a BMW) and I haven't noticed any movement but I haven't been watching it intently. It's only the last few days that I've realised it's leaking unfortunately.
    • bartelbe
    • By bartelbe 20th Oct 19, 9:34 PM
    • 409 Posts
    • 276 Thanks
    bartelbe
    I wouldn't assume the leak is serious, oil tends to spread everywhere, even if it is a small amount. It could also have been leaking a long time.

    If you want to fix it yourself, spray a load of engine de-greaser to remove the oil. This will allow to find the leak. If it is a sump gasket it is simple to fix.

    It could also be a blocked breather somewhere which increase the oil pressure, in the case of BMWs it will be a PCV valve. Once again, not a difficult fix.

    I would be very surprised if such a new engine had a worn crank seal.
    • domdeath
    • By domdeath 21st Oct 19, 7:20 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    domdeath
    Thanks bartelbe. Is it reasonable to try and collate a list of "easily repairable things" and "things which it is reasonable to request a refund of the car for". I.e:

    - sump gasket - repair
    - head gasket - refund
    - crankshaft seal - refund
    - oil filter leak - repair
    - piped connection leak - repair
    - turbocharger leak (is any part of the turbo oil cooled?) - not sure?
    Etc.

    So basically anything which requires the engine to be pretty heavily dismantled I would say warrants a refund. What other potential leaks should I add to this list? (I want this list to be as comprehensive as possible so I can make an informed decision when the company gets back to me with the potential cause).
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 21st Oct 19, 8:14 AM
    • 26,376 Posts
    • 26,276 Thanks
    AdrianC
    If it's not losing oil, then the oil soaked into the undertray's acoustic lining could just be from ham-fisted muppets spilling it while refilling at service time.

    Or it could be from a previous leak that's been fixed.
    • domdeath
    • By domdeath 21st Oct 19, 3:31 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    domdeath
    So, an update on the issue.

    I contacted the garage today and they said as the car is in their 3 month warranty they give they will repair it under that.

    I am concerned that if I accept for it to be repaired under warranty, I am then at risk that if they discover the fault is a major issue (like a shaft seal or something) then I have already committed to a repair under warranty and lose the right to a refund under consumer rights? Am I right to be concerned or would I still be within my right to request a refund if the fault is major?
    • waamo
    • By waamo 21st Oct 19, 5:46 PM
    • 8,327 Posts
    • 11,409 Thanks
    waamo
    So, an update on the issue.

    I contacted the garage today and they said as the car is in their 3 month warranty they give they will repair it under that.

    I am concerned that if I accept for it to be repaired under warranty, I am then at risk that if they discover the fault is a major issue (like a shaft seal or something) then I have already committed to a repair under warranty and lose the right to a refund under consumer rights? Am I right to be concerned or would I still be within my right to request a refund if the fault is major?
    Originally posted by domdeath
    Why does it matter? If it's fixed it's fixed. The size of the problem shouldn't really be of concern it's the quality of repair that's the issue.
    This space for hire.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 21st Oct 19, 7:12 PM
    • 26,376 Posts
    • 26,276 Thanks
    AdrianC
    ...if they discover the fault is a major issue (like a shaft seal or something)...
    Originally posted by domdeath
    That isn't a "major issue". It's a minor one. Change the seal - it probably costs a few quid.

    The expense and hassle is usually in getting to it, of course, but actually changing an oil seal is rarely anything but trivial.
    • EdGasketTheSecond
    • By EdGasketTheSecond 21st Oct 19, 7:48 PM
    • 1,415 Posts
    • 737 Thanks
    EdGasketTheSecond
    Maybe they will just steam clean it and not fix anything. Find out what they say they've done and check it afterwards for leaks.
    • seatbeltnoob
    • By seatbeltnoob 21st Oct 19, 9:12 PM
    • 747 Posts
    • 194 Thanks
    seatbeltnoob
    I would have got a second opinion from a trusty mechanic to do an inspection on it before handing it back to the dealer. Even if it costs a few quid for their report. You'll get an impartial opinion on the degree of the problem and whether to reject it or not.


    Dealers are known to refund at the last resort. Even if a car had cambelt failure before and the engine was rebuilt and giving problems. They'd still want to take it back to repair to return to buyer.
    Last edited by seatbeltnoob; 22-10-2019 at 11:09 AM.
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