Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • BrokenSky
    • By BrokenSky 29th Sep 19, 7:42 PM
    • 26Posts
    • 6Thanks
    BrokenSky
    BW Legal/3D Parking
    • #1
    • 29th Sep 19, 7:42 PM
    BW Legal/3D Parking 29th Sep 19 at 7:42 PM
    Hi all, first time poster here,

    Last year my partner worked for a company in a business park, which didnt have enough parking spaces for all the employees. Inside the employee car park, it was common to park along the road where there were no yellow lines or other markings. There was no signage saying where parking was or was not permitted.

    There was also a field on the edge of the main parking area where people parked. For at least a year this was the status quo. My partner had a valid employee parking pass, but sometimes even would have to park in the overflow to get to the office.

    Most days my partner arrived extremely early, just to get a space, but on two occasions was not able to park in a bay so on one day she parked in the field and on another parked along the side of the road. On the two days she parked outside of a bay there was nothing affixed to the car to say there had been a contravention. On most days there were probably fifty other cars parked similarly.

    I received two different PCNs from 3D Parking several months after my partner parked in the overflow. It is my opinion that 3D took advantage of the fact that dozens of cars parked like this daily. By not putting a ticket on the car some people parked in the same way on multiple occasions. The company she worked for had emailed all staff showing where parking was permitted using a Google Earth picture and a highlighter. The overflow area was included in the permitted zone. There was no visible signage on site indicating any parking restrictions as it was assumed that the parking was for employees. The only sign on display was a No Trespassers sign. One person received over 15 tickets and actually quit his job in protest.
    When my partner went back to get photos they had put a chain across part of the field where parking was not permitted, but this was not clear from the satellite photo. My partner no longer has the email and had quit a few months after getting this ticket.

    We moved house last year so there was a delay in getting the original PCNs from 3D Parking and letters from Trace Debt Recovery, which arrived in the autumn. After reading the MSE forums at the time I decided to ignore this correspondence and wait to see what happened. We received further letters from 3D Parking and BW Legal, which I also chose to ignore. Time will tell whether that was a foolish decision or not!

    We received the Court Claim form in early July, which we acknowledged within the time frame. We have also submitted our defence on time, based on the templates provided by fellow posters on these boards, which we are grateful for. BW Legal have now responded saying that they wish to continue with the claim. Weve received the DQ from the court, and have received BW Legals DQ in the post. We need to send ours to the court this week.

    I think the DQ should be reasonably straightforward, but I have a few questions before I complete the form.

    The vehicle is registered in my name, but my partner was using the vehicle when these events occurred last year. Should I add her as an additional witness in D3 of the form, since she was actually at the site in question and I would like her to be there as backup?
    Once I have completed the DQ, can I submit it online via email to the ccbcaq@justice.gov.uk email address, or should this be posted to the St Katharine House address? Also, should I post copies to both BW Legal and 3D Parking?

    I also hoped for your advice on our case in general:

    Is it too late to do a SAR from 3D Parking at this stage?
    BW Legal have added legal fees of 60 each on top of the 100 for each PCN, so 120 of legal fees in total. Reading the forum I see that a previous case F0DP201T under District Judge Taylor makes this an Abuse of Process. Is it too late to mention this in my witness statement, as unfortunately I wasnt aware of this when we submitted our defence.


    Many thanks in advance for your help. There seems to be so much knowledge among the users on this forum, it seems obvious to consult with you first so that BW Legal and 3D Parking dont get away with this!
    Last edited by BrokenSky; 18-01-2020 at 10:49 PM. Reason: Amending title as case has moved on.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 29th Sep 19, 7:57 PM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 29th Sep 19, 7:57 PM
    • #2
    • 29th Sep 19, 7:57 PM
    its never too late to do the SAR , but add a copy or scan of the V5C or N1 claim form as proof of ID under the GDPR , email it to the DPO at 3D tonight if possible

    ADD THE NUMBER OF WITNESSES LIKELY TO ATTEND ON THE HEARING DATE

    this is so they know if they need a large room or not, usually its two or three of you at most in a small room

    add the abuse of process to your WS , see the thread by Beadyroller to get the gist (lower down the forum)

    your WS plus your partners will be submitted much further in this process , in several months time , plus your Exhibits and your costs schedule too, as a bundle

    email the DQ as an attachment same as everyone else, to the email address listed by KeithP in all his posts about it
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 29th Sep 19, 7:59 PM
    • 19,593 Posts
    • 24,988 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #3
    • 29th Sep 19, 7:59 PM
    • #3
    • 29th Sep 19, 7:59 PM
    I'll just address these two points:

    Once I have completed the DQ, can I submit it online via email to the ccbcaq@justice.gov.uk email address, or should this be posted to the St Katharine House address? Also, should I post copies to both BW Legal and 3D Parking?
    Send it by email to that CCBC address.
    Send a copy to the Claimant - address on your Claim Form.


    Is it too late to do a SAR from 3D Parking at this stage?
    It is never too late to send a SAR to the parking company. The information returned may be useful at Witness Statement time.
    .
    • BrokenSky
    • By BrokenSky 29th Sep 19, 8:52 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    BrokenSky
    • #4
    • 29th Sep 19, 8:52 PM
    • #4
    • 29th Sep 19, 8:52 PM
    Redx and KeithP, thanks for your responses.

    I have a question about the SAR. 3D don't seem to have a DPO email address on their website. They only have an 'info@3dparking.co.uk' address. Should I email the request to this address, asking for it to be forwarded to their DPO? Or should I send it by post instead (or both)? I'm assuming that I should also send BW a letter informing them that I've sent their client a SAR?

    Many thanks.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 29th Sep 19, 9:18 PM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 29th Sep 19, 9:18 PM
    • #5
    • 29th Sep 19, 9:18 PM
    they also do not appear to have any data protection information either , so I suspect they have failed the GDPR 2018 by not doing so, I cannot see anything about how they deal with personal data or how to rectify data errors etc, by their DPO , and the date on the website is 2016

    I would try emailing the info address and ask for it to be passed to their DPO , possibly also sending a postal letter as well

    I would also see what the ICO have to say about this lack of data protection advice and contacts etc on the 3D website too

    you can let B W LEGAL know if you wish , although I doubt that they would be interested and would just file it

    I cannot see anything on there about appealing a parking charge notice either , very , very amateur and may be in breach of the IPC CoP , some vetting that was
    Last edited by Redx; 29-09-2019 at 9:31 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • BrokenSky
    • By BrokenSky 1st Oct 19, 2:10 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    BrokenSky
    • #6
    • 1st Oct 19, 2:10 PM
    • #6
    • 1st Oct 19, 2:10 PM
    Thank you for the information on the SAR. I will send this on to 3D in the post and follow up with an email.

    I have now emailed the completed and signed DQ to the CCBC address and received their acknowledgement. My Claim Form has the Claimant as 3D, but immediately below gives BW Legal as the address for sending documents and payments. I was going to post a copy (by recorded delivery) of the completed DQ to BW, should I also post a copy to 3D?
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 1st Oct 19, 2:15 PM
    • 19,593 Posts
    • 24,988 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 1st Oct 19, 2:15 PM
    • #7
    • 1st Oct 19, 2:15 PM
    I have now emailed the completed and signed DQ to the CCBC address and received their acknowledgement. My Claim Form has the Claimant as 3D, but immediately below gives BW Legal as the address for sending documents and payments. I was going to post a copy (by recorded delivery) of the completed DQ to BW, should I also post a copy to 3D?
    Originally posted by BrokenSky
    You send a copy of your completed DQ to the Claimant to the address in the box labelled "Address for sending documents and payments".

    Do not send it by any method that requires a signature. All that does is allow them to refuse to sign and hence refuse delivery.

    Send it using Standard First Class Post getting a free Certificate of Posting from the Post Office counter.
    It is deemed delivered two working days later.
    .
    • BrokenSky
    • By BrokenSky 1st Oct 19, 2:19 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    BrokenSky
    • #8
    • 1st Oct 19, 2:19 PM
    • #8
    • 1st Oct 19, 2:19 PM
    KeithP, thank you for the quick reply and the clear explanation. I hadn't realised using recorded delivery would just create more problems for me!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 1st Oct 19, 2:29 PM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    • #9
    • 1st Oct 19, 2:29 PM
    • #9
    • 1st Oct 19, 2:29 PM
    Plus there is no service called recorded delivery , it's called "signed for" , but you should follow the instructions by KeithP

    A lot of these firms won't sign for anything , or use p o boxes that are not manned , so nobody to sign , proving failure to deliver
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • BrokenSky
    • By BrokenSky 14th Jan 20, 11:03 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    BrokenSky
    Hi again,

    I've now received a notice of allocation at my local court, and the hearing will be held in early February. I have been given 14 days prior to the hearing, (due in the course of next week) to deliver my WS and other documentation to the Court and BW Legal.

    I will start pulling together over the next few days the documentation required from what I've read so far from previous relevant threads, and also on the sticky from Coupon_mad and bargepole. However, I do have two questions before I proceed.

    Firstly, I've realised that we appealed the claims when we received them originally in late 2018. We were moving house back then, so when our appeal was rejected by 3D we didn't take further action until the LBCCC was received last year. Will this go against us at the hearing?

    Secondly, I was the registered keeper of the vehicle, but not the driver at the time the incidents occurred. The incidents occurred at my partner's place of work. How best should I express this in my statement?

    Thanks for your help.

    PS: How paranoid should I be that the claimant or their lawyers are 'spying' on these MSE boards? I've read of one event that took place on PePiPoo, where the claimant was represented by BW. Does this happen often enough for me to be worried?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jan 20, 11:50 PM
    • 80,692 Posts
    • 95,221 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Firstly, I've realised that we appealed the claims when we received them originally in late 2018. We were moving house back then, so when our appeal was rejected by 3D we didn't take further action until the LBCCC was received last year. Will this go against us at the hearing?
    No, and if the Judge is listening to that rubbish from their rep, you can counter it!

    There was no obligation to engage or appeal, and not trying second stage can be said to be because 3D Parking are in the IPC AOS and they offer NO further appeal that is ever worth trying. 'IAS' is widely reported to be a kangaroo court, where the IPC member parking firms laugh that they let their consumer victims 'futilely go through the motions' of appeal:

    https://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2016/01/is-independent-appeal-service-kangaroo.html

    You should be angry about that, if you had not read that blog before or seen the Watchdog programmes (more than one over the years) exposing the farce. There was never any fair appeal open to you with any IPC member. The slightly better POPLA (BPA AOS members only) was not on the table.

    Secondly, I was the registered keeper of the vehicle, but not the driver at the time the incidents occurred. The incidents occurred at my partner's place of work. How best should I express this in my statement?
    Firstly, check the Notice to Keeper against the POFA Schedule 4 paragraph 8 (if there was said to be a windscreen PCN) or para 9 (if it was a postal NTK only, say by remote ANPR camera).

    If the NTK was not a POFA compliant one in wording or timeline, then you will be saying that you were not driving and that this Claimant cannot hold a registered keeper liable under the applicable law - and then explain why.

    You've not been posting here since October, so unless you've been keeping up with the forum (I hope you have) you've perhaps missed reading what happened in a case in Southampton in November, that you can use in your own case (read the thread by CEC16 - it is VERY important you understand what else you can throw at this now!).

    And you may have also missed that we always now tell people to file & serve their costs schedule in advance, along with their WS, supplementary WS about the added 60, and the case law and maybe photos, that you plan to use in evidence.

    Play catch up for a day or two on the forum, then show us your planned exhibits and your narrative WS, your costs schedule and your supplementary WS by reading ANY other claim thread that is past WS stage recently, plus the thread by CEC16 (no link, go find him in the members' list).

    How paranoid should I be that the claimant or their lawyers are 'spying' on these MSE boards? I've read of one event that took place on PePiPoo, where the claimant was represented by BW. Does this happen often enough for me to be worried?
    Not at all, no problem, especially as you were not the driver. Everything you have said here backs up your defence and WS and there is nothing to hide in your case; they will see it soon!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 14-01-2020 at 11:54 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • BrokenSky
    • By BrokenSky 15th Jan 20, 12:49 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    BrokenSky
    Thank you Coupon-mad, I appreciate the detailed response.

    I will do all the suggested reading (especially the Southampton case) and drafting over the next few days and come back with draft narrative and supplementary WS, exhibits and a costs schedule for you to review.
    • BrokenSky
    • By BrokenSky 17th Jan 20, 12:33 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    BrokenSky
    It has been very busy for me workwise the last few days, so unfortunately I haven't done as much preparation as I would like. I am going to sacrifice this weekend focusing on producing the WS and attending documents, but I know it will be worth it in the end.

    If the NTK was not a POFA compliant one in wording or timeline, then you will be saying that you were not driving and that this Claimant cannot hold a registered keeper liable under the applicable law - and then explain why.
    They were postal NTKs. I was sent copies these by 3D following my SAR request last year. I've noticed that the reason 3D gave for the alleged contraventions is that "Not parked wholly within the markings of the bay or space". Does this stack up given that the driver had a valid parking permit during the time the alleged contraventions took place? Each of the NTKs has a photo clearly showing the parking permit number on display in the windscreen.

    I also question the timing of one of the two NTKs. The first contravention was on xx/08/2018 and the NTK was issued just under a month later on xx/09/2018, but over the 14 day period. (POFA Schedule 4 Para. 9(5). That would contravene POFA would it not, as the registered keeper wasn't driving? To meet this category, how can I tell by looking at the NTK that 3D are seeking 'Keeper Liability' under POFA?

    Although it was submitted months ago, would it be worth posting or PMing my Defence, so that it provides some context as I shape my WS and Supplementary WS for your review (once I've drafted)?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 17th Jan 20, 8:28 AM
    • 6,253 Posts
    • 8,277 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    No permit and not in a bay are utterly different alleged contraventions. What do they claim in the CLAIM FORM itself? Because if they claim no permit, thats the claim you defend and point out that there clearly was a permit there. AND you point out that their NtKs never alleged no permit as the basis for the charge, which is another pofa fail - they cannot allege one thing and go to coutr for another and try to hold the keepe rliable for it.

    Yes, of course it would. However was there a notice on the vehicle? Their pics would show this. If there was, then its para 8 youre looking at for timescales, which are 29-56 dyas, not 14.

    You can tell by looking because it will state the keeper is responsible if after the period beginning 28 days aftrr the day on which the notice is given....
    • BrokenSky
    • By BrokenSky 17th Jan 20, 9:31 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    BrokenSky
    The Claim Form says their claim is for:
    “…parking contraventions which occurred between xx/xx/2018 and xx/xx/2018 on private land managed and operated by the Claimant, where the Defendant was responsible for a Vehicle, registration mark XXXX XXX, seen breaching terms and conditions in operation at the Car Park/Private Land.
    The Defendant was allowed 28 days from the PCN issue Date to pay each PCN, but failed to do so.
    Despite demand having being made, the Defendant has failed to settle their outstanding liability…..”

    In their rejection of my appeal letter they cited “Beavis” as a breach of the Terms and Conditions of Parking.

    From the above it looks like they are trying to rely on a breach of their T&Cs?

    No, there were no notices on the windscreen. In both cases we received letters from 3D. The first was received 28 days after the alleged contravention, and the second was only 2 days after the alleged contravention. I think when NtKs are sent by post they fall under POFA, Schedule 4, Para 9 and I'm looking at clause 5.

    The NtKs don't explicitly say that the keeper is responsible after 28 days. They did give the option to fill in details of the driver if the keeper wasn’t responsible for the contravention. Does that make make the first claim invalid?
    Last edited by BrokenSky; 18-01-2020 at 6:26 AM. Reason: Corrected reference to POFA legislation.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 17th Jan 20, 9:39 AM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    No , but if they failed POFA in timescales , wording or both then a keeper cannot be held to be liable , especially if the keeper was not the driver

    Invalid would indicate something completely different , so a bad choice of word

    It could be deemed a valid invoice if they had followed POFA , whereas any discrepancies mean the keeper isn't liable and they should invoice the driver and pursue the driver (if known) , meaning they could have a valid claim , against a driver

    You are under no obligation to name the driver

    My point , if they fail in law against a keeper then the claim should be struck out
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 17th Jan 20, 9:42 AM
    • 6,253 Posts
    • 8,277 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Nothing makes a claim "invalid". They allege you owe them money from the invoice (NtK) they sent. thats it

    Post up the NtKs, rather than us guessing. THERE MUST BE A SECTION STATING THE KEEPER WILL BE LIABLE
    if there isnt
    they havent given the correct warning AND they are not trying ti invoke POFA; so firstly you state in your defence that they are NOT using POFA, so have no claim, THEN you state that even if they claim now theyre using POFA to hold you liable, they fail beause they didnt meet the following.... of whcih the time period is merely ONE element. You have to work out and list *every* fail.
    • BrokenSky
    • By BrokenSky 17th Jan 20, 1:20 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    BrokenSky
    Sorry, as I have never done this before. What is the preferred method for uploading a copy of the NTKs? Is there a webhosting site that is best for anonymity? I can't use my personal Dropbox as it has my name. Does MSE have a preferred file format?
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 17th Jan 20, 1:25 PM
    • 8,009 Posts
    • 9,072 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Just use any image hosting site such as imgur (but not tinypic) and post the URL you are given as hxxps:// if you are not allowed to post it due to not being a member long enough or not having enough posts under your belt.
    • BrokenSky
    • By BrokenSky 17th Jan 20, 3:04 PM
    • 26 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    BrokenSky
    Ok, Ive had an IT colleague help redact the NtKs for me. Ive also used Imgur for the first time today. This is all a learning experience!

    Links to the NtKs are here. Please note that the windscreen evidential image is of the employee parking permit number, not a windscreen PCN:

    https://imgur.com/a/XrRXWhv
    https://imgur.com/a/PqoBk61

    Please let me know if they dont work.
    Ill restate my question from last night in case you missed it: Should I post my Defence so that you have some context?

    Thanks
    Last edited by BrokenSky; 18-01-2020 at 5:19 PM.
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

98Posts Today

1,674Users online

Martin's Twitter