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  • FIRST POST
    • sm1tt
    • By sm1tt 31st Jul 19, 1:39 PM
    • 42Posts
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    sm1tt
    Court Letter Robinhood airport bus stop PCN help!
    • #1
    • 31st Jul 19, 1:39 PM
    Court Letter Robinhood airport bus stop PCN help! 31st Jul 19 at 1:39 PM
    Good day,


    I would first like to add thanks to those who read and help me with this PCN.
    I will try to be concise as i go.


    So we received a PCN from VCS on the 26/11/2015 for stopping on approach road at a bus stop.
    As it was so long ago i cant officially remember if we stopped for a brief moment or longer.


    The MAIN request for help is with regards to action i can refer to when setting defence, the ONLY correspondence we have received from VCS regarding this PCN is the court letter we have had NO other correspondence not even the supposed PCN that the claim refers too!


    I will add the Particulars (when im aloud) so anyone who could help me pick the specific defence for the lack of documents and unclear particulars would be of great help!

    Again thanks in advance!
Page 4
    • sm1tt
    • By sm1tt 1st Dec 19, 10:51 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    sm1tt
    -------------------------
    Witness Statement


    4) Before I describe what I can recollect on the day of the events back in 2015, I confirm that the essence of my defence to this claim is that:
    A. I did not breach the terms and conditions of parking as no parking was carried out,
    B. The claimant’s signage at the time of the event did not reference bus stop/stand as evidenced in EX-1a and EX-1b (pages 1,2), it is also noted in EX-1b that contact details and operator information is not present as detailed it should be in the BPA Code of Practice Ref EX-2 (page 3).
    C. Even if the terms and conditions were found to be in breach, the claimant is obliged by the compulsory Code of Practice of its own Accredited Trade Association to apply a Grace Period, if this Grace Period is questioned it should be brought to the courts attention that the only Entrance Sign from this direction of which highlights the alleged terms and conditions is for NO STOPPING (causeway), the helpline to contact VCS regarding stopping was found to be unreadable due local obstructions stopping the ability of any driver to read it as shown in EX-3a and EX-3b (pages 4,5).
    D. All evidence shown is during the daylight hours, it is reminded to the courts that the events took place in the early hours of the morning when it was dark and therefore made entering any contract even more erroneous due to poor visibility and poor lighting around the signs.
    E. Abuse of Process - regarding the initial County Court Claim where the Claimant seeks to recover the PCN, Contractual costs and Interest to the sum of £185 (see next page)


    (Here i have added Coupn-Mad's ABUSE OF PROCESS info from Post 14 of that very thread)


    BACKGROUND:-
    On the date of the alleged contravention the defendant entered Doncaster/Sheffield airport from the south at around 06:50am in the month of November when suddenly the defendant felt nauseous, given that an onset of Nausea can be severe the defendant decided that an emergency such as this warranted pulling over immediately and did so accordingly, at this point the defendant reached over to open the passenger door to allow fresh air to enter and to prepare for the possible outcome of vomiting caused by nausea. After the feeling had passed the Defendant carried on about the day. The defendant had no inclination at the time that they had been entered into or accepted entrance to any such contract forthwith, it is also noted that the sign closest to the location of which the defendant was pulled into refers to ‘No Stopping’ (causeway) as described in the highway code, the causeway being the Two roads next to the bus stop not the bus stop itself which cannot categorically be seen as a causeway. Ref EX-5 (Page 8).

    14) Having not received any correspondence from the Claimant until such times as a court letter from the CCBC had been sent to the correct address, there was no available opportunity for the defendant to supply evidence relating to the aforementioned emergency, therefore the Claimant has elected to pursue this matter via litigation, it is evidenced by the claimants own company that the initial letters sent to the defendants old address had been returned stating ‘Returned – Addressee gone away’ EX-6 (page 9) and as such the claimant was made aware that the defendant was no longer at this address, yet regardless of this information made no attempt over the following 4 years to make initial contact with the defendant and as such the defendant was never aware of any infringement.



    15) It is my position that, the Claimant has no standing, or cause of action to litigate in this matter. I base this on the case “PCM vs Bull” where defendants were issued parking tickets for parking on private roads with signage stating “no parking at any time”.

    A. District Judge Glen in his final statement mentioned that: “the notice was prohibitive, and didn’t communicate any offer of parking and that landowners may have claim in trespass, but that was not under consideration”.



    16) It is my view that the Doncaster-Sheffield airport byelaws should be applicable and considered: -

    A. VCS operates under Doncaster-Sheffield airport byelaws, due to the emergency encountered by the defendant in the early hours of the morning these fit the criteria specified in DSA byelaws and are supportive of my case as shown below and over page:-
    ‘5. PROHIBITED ACTS ON PARTS OF THE AIRPORT TO WHICH THE ROAD TRAFFIC ENACTMENTS DO NOT APPLY’
    The following acts are prohibited on any part of the Airport to which the Road
    Traffic Enactments do not apply:


    “5 (3) Obstruction:
    except in an emergency, leave or park a Vehicle or cause it to wait for a period in excess of the permitted time in an area where the period of waiting is restricted by Notice”


    and

    “5(12) Parking of Vehicles
    without reasonable excuse! Park a Vehicle elsewhere than in a place provided for that purpose.



    17) Reason’s for stopping should be considered. In case “Jopson vs. Homeguard Services Ltd” (9GF0A9E), the Defendant stopped for a few minutes to unload some furniture and a desk outside the entrance to the building containing her flat and was issued a parking ticket. In his verdict/statement Judge Harris QC, made the following statement regarding the definition of the word “parking”:



    20. […] However, the Shorter Oxford Dictionary has the following: “To leave a vehicle in a carpark or other reserved space” and “To leave in a suitable place until required”. The concept of parking as opposed to stopping, is that of leaving a car for some duration of time beyond that needed for getting in or out of it, loading or unloading it, and perhaps coping with some vicissitude of short duration, such as changing a wheel in the event of a puncture. Merely to stop a vehicle cannot be to park it’ otherwise traffic jams would consist of lines of parked cars. “


    A. Based on the previous statement it is considered that the issues encountered would be classed as minor vicissitude.

    18) No offer of contract is being presented by the Claimant. In case “Ransomes vs Anderson”, the Defendant went to the industrial estate and after not being able to get into their designated parking area, parked on the road, on a double yellow line, for which he was issued a parking ticket. In his judgement the district judge rejected the contract claim on the basis that the notice was too vague and uncertain to generate contractual liability. The sign, in question, started with:

    “Warning: Private property. Not Trespassing. No Parking. No Stopping. No Waiting. You have entered this private property. You are now subject to the terms and conditions of the land owner listed below”.

    A. District Judge accepted in principle that Mr. Anderson committed a trespass and that trespass must have caused some loss to the claimant, in terms of expenses incurred, but made no award of damages in relation to it and dismissed the claim.

    B. It is my belief, that by entering the private property and not obeying to the rules displayed on the notice, I did not form any contract with the Claimant because no such contract was presented to me.


    19) In “Ransomes vs Anderson” case, the District Judge said:

    “the notice was insufficiently clear to constitute a valid contractual offer capable of acceptance by conduct. […] Although the doctrine of acceptance by conduct, on the basis of the terms on a notice in a parking place or similar zone, is an obviously right, valuable and useful one, it is an essential minimum that the contract be sufficiently simple and clear that the motorist is in no doubt before he performs the accepting conduct what he is letting himself in for”.

    A. The district judge was plainly right to say that this notice, in contractual terms, was too vague and uncertain to have the requisite effect.
    20) Both 'Jopson' and 'Ransomes' are persuasive appeal decisions which already existed and which fly in the face of the recent VCS v Ward flawed appeal decision, where a Judge was wrongly led by VCS about a brief stop, and was misled to wrongly consider Beavis which has no such application in these different fact cases (only in cases of similar facts - retail park overstays with the same clear signs). And the Defendant failed to adduce Jopson or Ransomes nor even appear at the appeal hearing to fight his side, so VCS v Ward should not carry the same persuasive weight compared to Jopson and Ransomes where the matters regarding 'stopping' as opposed to parking and agreeing a contract, were more thoroughly considered with all parties present.

    In Defence of the Claimants Witness Statement,
    21) The Claimant avers to not receiving a full and complete copy of the Defendant’s Defence of which the defendant has evidence of special delivery both to the CCBC and to the Claimant as evidenced in EX-7a (page 10)
    22) In reference to section 33,34,35,36 and 37 it is established that the Consumer Rights Act 2015 does apply to this contract and
    Consumer Rights Act 2015
    35.Subsection (2) makes clear that a trader is a person acting for purposes relating to their trade, business, craft or profession. It makes clear that a trader acting through another person acting in the trader’s name or on the trader’s behalf, for example a trader which subcontracts part of a building contract or a company for which the employees make contracts with customers, is liable for proper performance of the contract. A “person” is not just a natural person but can also include companies, charities and arms of government (and the reference to a “person” can also include more than one person). So where these types of body are acting for purposes relating to their trade, business, craft or profession, they are caught by the definition of trader. Subsection (7) makes clear that a ‘business’ includes the activities of government departments and local and public authorities, which means that these bodies may therefore come within the definition of a trader. Not-for-profit organisations, such as charities, mutuals and cooperatives, may also come within the definition of a trader, for example, if a charity shop sells t-shirts or mugs, they would be acting within the meaning of trader.
    • sm1tt
    • By sm1tt 1st Dec 19, 10:53 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    sm1tt
    This is for Posting on Tuesday!!


    Im fairly happy with it and it covers most of what i want just wondering if any of you lovely folk here maybe able to give it a quick once over before it sails its maiden voyage.


    I have of course delete some info that will make it official and obvs the signage and date etc!!


    thnx
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Dec 19, 11:53 PM
    • 80,692 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Reason’s
    Greengrocer's apostrophe needs removing!

    And put the abuse of process argument on a different Supplementary WS to make the main WS about the £100 charge more on point.

    Oh, you could add Vine v Waltham Forest (presumably they already adduced that case?) because it was about a woman who was ill and found as fact as unable to have seen the signs which were not prominent. Similar to this case. Not seeing the signs IS a defence.

    Your numbering looks odd but might just be due to you redacting personal introductory stuff. I like the efforts you have made - it's a very good example of fighting a VCS Airport WS.

    Inclusion of Ransomes & Jopson transcripts are vital, along with the actual Airport byelaws as an exhibit, to show up VCS v Ward as a trashy piece of drivel steered by VCS' rep completely up the garden path, with the D not there.

    After all, as any fule kno, any useless bullyboy Claimant can win at a hearing when the D doesn't turn up. Such cases mean diddly squat.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 02-12-2019 at 12:01 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • sm1tt
    • By sm1tt 2nd Dec 19, 8:10 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    sm1tt
    Would it be good practice to include the letters of breach of data they sent me to show incompetence on the claimants behalf?


    Other than that the transcripts i need and the adjustment to what goes where and as a supplement im ready to go!! Bring it on actually im getting excited about fighting this!!


    Thanks again for the help
    • sm1tt
    • By sm1tt 2nd Dec 19, 9:17 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    sm1tt
    oh and do i need to send all this as part of the WS or can the transcripts be taken to court for reference then?
    I ask because of the vast amount of printing i need to get done with all these documents etc!!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Dec 19, 12:46 AM
    • 80,692 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Transcripts need printing I'm afraid, for the court copy in a nice ring binder.

    The Claimant's copy can be emailed.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • sm1tt
    • By sm1tt 3rd Dec 19, 5:50 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    sm1tt
    Ok Thank you!!


    So the Claimants copy of the WS, Documents and Transcripts can all be sent via E-mail?
    Apologies for asking quite noobish questions just having a last minute p-p-panic over completing everything correctly and in the best way. (especially for copy of the courts)
    • sm1tt
    • By sm1tt 2nd Jan 20, 1:05 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    sm1tt
    So today was the day of the court case!!! A strange affair!!!



    The judge was very surprised to find the claimant had continued to pursue the case given light of the poor WS they had provided.


    The judge was impressed by the level of defence brought forward by the defendant.


    The Judge requested an adjournment based on the grounds that the Claimant had not had a full copy of the Defence even though this had been served to them and evidenced of doing so!


    He stated that he was highly interested in the goings on at Doncaster airport having already carried out a case similar and wanted to use this case as a test case to further understand the position of VCS!


    He stated that there were many DJ's interested in this case and of similar cases around the country.


    So we carry on fighting
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Jan 20, 2:44 PM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    Excellent , let's hope you get the right result and that we can see how judges feel about the issues on land under bylaws , like stopping cases at airports , as opposed to Parking issues at airports (which we rarely see)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Jan 20, 1:43 AM
    • 80,692 Posts
    • 95,221 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So today was the day of the court case!!! A strange affair!!!

    The judge was very surprised to find the claimant had continued to pursue the case given light of the poor WS they had provided.

    The judge was impressed by the level of defence brought forward by the defendant.

    The Judge requested an adjournment based on the grounds that the Claimant had not had a full copy of the Defence even though this had been served to them and evidenced of doing so!

    He stated that he was highly interested in the goings on at Doncaster airport having already carried out a case similar and wanted to use this case as a test case to further understand the position of VCS!

    He stated that there were many DJ's interested in this case and of similar cases around the country.

    So we carry on fighting
    Originally posted by sm1tt
    Interesting.

    Did you ask that your costs be reserved because the adjournment was not caused by any failure on your part and you have suffered costs by attending one hearing now, and need them to be recoverable at the next?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • sm1tt
    • By sm1tt 15th Jan 20, 7:28 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    sm1tt
    Hi Apologies for late reply working life has become a little more stressful recently due to personal circumstances but i am always greatful for all your help!!!


    I did indeed have the opportunity to reserve costs for the first case and have now received the revised WS and arguments from the Claimant which is quite concise...


    Will add information at the weekend when i have more free time.


    ___Question...?


    Am i allowed to retort against the new found WS claims of the Claimant before the second trial date?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Jan 20, 7:31 PM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    Yes , submit a supplementary WS to the court and to the claimant
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • sm1tt
    • By sm1tt 15th Jan 20, 7:47 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    sm1tt
    Awesome i thought i could just wanted to confirm now that i have the new revised WS!!
    • sm1tt
    • By sm1tt 21st Jan 20, 7:26 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    sm1tt
    How would i go about serving Video Evidence to Court as part of my Supplementary WS?
    Can i just reference the Video or do i have to serve a copy / original before the hearing?


    Many thanks in advance!!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 21st Jan 20, 7:38 PM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    serve it to court and to claimant , on usb stick preferably , or a dvd

    but bear in mind you must be able to play it in court, on a tablet or laptop or similar, no point having it if you cannot view it, or show it to the judge and claimant

    serve it to the court and also to the claimant , like everything else you have done already , an ambush in court is not allowed
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • sm1tt
    • By sm1tt 21st Jan 20, 7:44 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 24 Thanks
    sm1tt
    Ok cool! I suspected as such though i now have to find myself a DVD or crappy USB stick.....
    I have no problem viewing in court as i use my tablet for documnet reference and my own referencing!


    Guess thats another thing to add to the costs list!!


    Thanks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 21st Jan 20, 7:45 PM
    • 26,776 Posts
    • 35,033 Thanks
    Redx
    its 2 things , ie:- 2 usb sticks , not one (court + claimant)

    your tablet is ok for your own evidence
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • KeithJ26
    • By KeithJ26 22nd Jan 20, 10:32 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    KeithJ26
    Hi Guys,
    My son is in a similar position and thought you should know that until late 2018 (I think) those signs did not have the necessary planning consent (Advertisements) and were classified by the Local Planning Authority as 'illegal'. As such, my understanding is that no court would find in favour of the Claimant based on an illegality.

    Other might might correct me on that.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 22nd Jan 20, 10:52 AM
    • 6,253 Posts
    • 8,277 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    they SHOULD NOT find in favour of them, but you need to have proof of such with you

    Tablet - you CANNOT play the file from your tablet, unless you are playing the usb stick on it. I imagine yo uare not. You must use the same medium as you give to the court and to the claimant to play back the file.
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