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  • FIRST POST
    • samee15
    • By samee15 14th Jun 19, 9:00 PM
    • 11Posts
    • 8Thanks
    samee15
    Barnet A&E ParkingEye
    • #1
    • 14th Jun 19, 9:00 PM
    Barnet A&E ParkingEye 14th Jun 19 at 9:00 PM
    Hi all
    A while back I received a ticket from ParkingEye, I followed the newbies thread to formulate a contextualised appeal for stopping in the A&E ambulance zone for 16 minutes. My appeal was rejected presumably as it was based on mitigating circumstances. (Driver was not revealed).

    The elderly patient had broken their ankle, I went to the main entrance and the A&E ward to get a wheelchair neither had one available for use. I had no choice but to drive into the ambulance only zone the closest proximity to the A&E ward's entrance to alight and assist the patient into the ward before moving to the A&E visitor car park and purchasing a ticket. (previously the ambulance zone was open to drop off of disabled passengers)

    As advised I complained to PALS at length and bold noting the Trust's principles who politely told me to eff off, that they cannot and will not cancel such a ticket (no golden ticket for me). They seem to have changed their tune based on other threads, I believe ParkingEye gave them a slap on the wrist for cancelling so much revenue. As a next step I raised a formal complaint to the Trust but given its the NHS I assume there's a 3-month waiting line til I hear back. I've emailed my local MP asking for support and contacted over 10 newspapers for some press coverage. Hopefully, something bites to prevent this getting to court if POPLA fails.

    In the meantime, I have 4 days to submit my (at present bare bones) POPLA appeal.
    My concern is that I feel the case rests on mitigating circumstances although the signage is questionable and could be argued a grace period should be applied. I can't seem to form non-mitigating circumstances story.

    I would appreciate any guidance on the best way to formulate the appeal to POPLA

    I'm starting with the basics I've found on other threads:
    1) Unclear, inadequate, illegible and mixed signage at the entrance and throughout the site

    2) No indication where the photos were taken - at the entrance or within the site - ParkingEye have several cameras here in different places.


    3) No reasonable grace period applied
    The Trust’s parking principles, clause 2 state that:
    Consideration should be given to the needs of people with temporary disabilities
    I.e. patients rendered unable to walk without aid.

    Furthermore, it is noted in the guiding principles:
    Additional charges should only be imposed where reasonable
    Resonable is defined as ‘Reasonable’ implementation of additional charges practice might include additional charges for people who do not have legitimate reasons for parking (eg commuters), or who persistently flout parking regulations (eg blocking entrances).
    In this case, there was no persistent flouting or non-legimtate reasons to park so quite simply the keeper would fall under reasonable usage and additional charges should not be imposed. There was quite clearly absolutely no intent to abuse the parking policy the mitigating circumstances and lack of resources forced the stopping anywhere in the closest physical proximity to A&E without calling an ambulance.

    4) No standing or authority from the landowner to enforce this charge/this contravention
    5. No legitimate interest - this charge is not like that in the Beavis car park/contract.
    6. Keeper Liability nor established - The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012


    Thanks in advance for your advice
    Last edited by samee15; 14-06-2019 at 9:11 PM.
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Jun 19, 9:16 PM
    • 25,200 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 9:16 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 9:16 PM
    6. Keeper Liability nor established - The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012
    That is the killer - if you can establish why. But you say the following:

    no golden ticket for me
    So, in what way have PE 'failed' PoFA?

    Your other points are on the right lines, you just have to expose the chinks in the PE armour.

    If you fail at POPLA, you need to see what PE's next move might be. If they issue court proceedings, you will need to defend yourself (with plenty of help from this forum), then see what a Judge decides. Hopefully a Judge would understand the 'human' aspect of all this and see PE for what they are!

    If it goes to debt collectors post-POPLA, then that's positive news, as PE seem to have some reason for not taking it further themselves.

    Barnet PALS are hopeless in the context of private parking issues, and are seemingly more in collaboration with PE than with their patients. Appalling positioning!
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case papers, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • samee15
    • By samee15 14th Jun 19, 9:48 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    samee15
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 9:48 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 9:48 PM
    Thanks for the tip Umkomaas. I just looked back at the NtK and it states:
    'A&E Drop-off zone'
    Time in car park: 16 minutes

    Even the naming of the site is favourable to me, especially as there is no further clarification on the contravention and when tied in the 20 minute grace period required... Eeek feeling better already. Thank you!!

    I didn't know this before but apparently, it's very common place for landowners to receive % of revenues from services carried out on their land (seems obvious enough) but this stretches to PPCs. Given PALs harsh response, I assume the NHS have noticed they're missing an easy income source...
    Last edited by samee15; 14-06-2019 at 9:51 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jun 19, 9:53 PM
    • 76,841 Posts
    • 90,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 9:53 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 9:53 PM
    Barnet PALS are hopeless in the context of private parking issues, and are seemingly more in collaboration with PE than with their patients. Appalling positioning!
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    I agree 100%. From personal experience. I've contacted them myself and they should be ashamed of their position, as you say, putting P/Eye before patients and stressed visitors who are not there trying to deliberately save £1 tariff like some sort of rogue parker.

    It's as if Barnet don't know about the NHS Parking Principles set by Government, but believe me, I tried more than once to make them read that policy when helping people. Just got offhand rudeness, like P/Eye had told them what to say and they swallowed it.

    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 14-06-2019 at 11:16 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jun 19, 10:00 PM
    • 76,841 Posts
    • 90,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:00 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:00 PM
    Surely there is no 20 minute drop off allowed for private cars at A&E, or is there?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Jun 19, 10:04 PM
    • 25,200 Posts
    • 40,680 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:04 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:04 PM
    Thanks for the tip Umkomaas. I just looked back at the NtK and it states:
    'A&E Drop-off zone'
    Time in car park: 16 minutes

    Even the naming of the site is favourable to me, especially as there is no further clarification on the contravention and when tied in the 20 minute grace period required... Eeek feeling better already. Thank you!!
    Originally posted by samee15
    Please read the POPLA assessor's reasoning for upholding this motorist's very recent appeal against PE. If there are 'hundreds of lidos no doubt situated around the country .....', there must be thousands of A&Es! (Only if 'Barnet' isn't showing against 'A&E').

    The operator has provided a copy of the ‘notice to keeper’ issued. I am satisfied that the vehicle details and parking period were specified as required by POFA, however I am not satisfied that the relevant land was. The notice refers to the land only as “Lido (1)” with no reference to the specific address or even the general location of the site.

    It is not possible to determine from the information on the notice which of the hundreds of lidos no doubt situated around the country that the vehicle was alleged to have parked on
    Relevant thread:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75922397&highlight=lido#post75922 397
    Please note, we are not a legal advice forum. I personally don't get involved in critiquing court case papers, so unable to help on that front. Please don't ask.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • samee15
    • By samee15 14th Jun 19, 10:19 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    samee15
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:19 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:19 PM
    Ah damn it, that's a great point mine does say 'Barnet Hospital (A&E Drop-Off Zone)'. I did have my rose tinted glasses on, I feel there's still something I can drag from the fact the NtK has next to nothing in detail for why this is a contravention.. Will refer back to appeal rejection maybe it's equally as hollow.

    Only until I went back to the site by foot for photos, carefully reading each sign did I realise the drop off zone has officially changed to ambulance only. In the past it was genuinely a drop off zone, there are still disabled bays in there now actually which makes it more confusing to me.
    • samee15
    • By samee15 14th Jun 19, 10:21 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    samee15
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:21 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:21 PM
    Not anymore apparently! Just to top off my confusion a lady who worked at the A&E ward saw me taking photos of the signage and said 'you can drop off for 20 minutes here don't worry!'
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jun 19, 10:22 PM
    • 76,841 Posts
    • 90,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:22 PM
    • #9
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:22 PM
    What would be good would be to ask the Barnet PALS/complaints fob-off team, when the A&E changed and stopped being a drop off zone (ask for the date) and why no extra prominent signs were added to alert locals familiar with the rules, to the change.

    The reply by email would be useful for you at court, to stop P/Eye's rep from pretending that there is no evidence that it was ever a drop off zone.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • samee15
    • By samee15 14th Jun 19, 10:47 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    samee15
    Good point, I will do that when I hear back from the complaints team. I think I've burnt my bridges with PALS now

    When I mentioned the lack of 'no parking' type signage, the PALS agent responded back noting there is BPA compliant signage stating: no parking at any time in red, bold and underline within the email made me chuckle as it's not even formatted like that clearly on the site's signage. Maybe PE should take signage tips from PALs

    I must figure out a way to share the photo evidence I gathered from my signography trip.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 19, 1:00 AM
    • 76,841 Posts
    • 90,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    If it says NO PARKING then there is no parking licence offered at all and P/Eye have no case to pursue a driver for breach of contract, as there is no contract on offer (no 'consideration' in the legal sense, means the elements of a contract are not there).
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 15-06-2019 at 12:54 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • samee15
    • By samee15 15th Jun 19, 6:49 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    samee15
    The ambulance only signs that have terms state No Parking at Any Time

    There is also one 'No Parking at Any Time sign I found which more legible but that's adhered to the wall by the entry of the ward. It is not visible usually as that's where the ambulance queue up for lengthier period waiting for the ward's ok that there is bed space to alight their patients. It would rely on a near empty A&E ward for the driver to enter, drive by sign read and exit. I have to say Barnet is rarely ever that empty being one of few 24hr A&E wards local.

    I've managed to upload my photos on imgur.com/a
    /xhZlcYz
    (broken the URL due to newbie status)
    Last edited by samee15; 15-06-2019 at 7:02 AM.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Jun 19, 6:58 AM
    • 40,482 Posts
    • 24,534 Thanks
    Quentin
    Www.imgur.com/a/xhZlcYz
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Jun 19, 7:52 AM
    • 15,307 Posts
    • 15,961 Thanks
    The Deep
    The signage is questionable

    Indeed, read this

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5972164
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 15th Jun 19, 9:29 AM
    • 4,893 Posts
    • 7,157 Thanks
    Half_way
    By this
    As advised I complained to PALS at length and bold noting the Trust's principles who politely told me to eff off
    do you mean the NHS parking principles as stated here:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles


    Or the Hospitals own parking information??


    If its the hospitals own guidelines, get back in touch again and remind them of the NHS parking principles.


    If they still wont cancel/refuse to help, then start going down the complaints road.
    Keep a time sheet of how much time you are spending on this, plus any expenses, inform the hospital that they are liable for your wasted time, and should POPLA uphold your complaint you will be invoicing the hospital.
    Submit an FOI request for details relating to the parking company (you wont be able to invoice the hospital for this, but it will cause aggro) ask awkward questions that will show a breach of the NHS parking principles


    How much does the hospital pay parking eye for car park management?
    if zero, then does parking eye pay the hospital to manage the car parks?


    What percentage of the revenue from patients/visitors/staff etc paying for parking ( ie pay and display/pay on exit) does the hospital keep and what percentage does parking eye keep?


    If all he standard parking fees are kept by the NHS, then who keeps the income made from Parking charge notices?


    Is the sole income for parking eye made up entirely from the issuing of parking charge notices issued to patients/staff/visitors etc who breach the terms and conditions?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 19, 12:55 PM
    • 76,841 Posts
    • 90,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    It's not the Trust's Principles, this is Government policy.

    But as already discussed above, Barnet don't show any regard at all to it.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • samee15
    • By samee15 15th Jun 19, 1:55 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    samee15
    Yes it was NHS's principles

    Noted on FOI request, will do that in prep for court after submitting POPLA as that looks like the direction I'm headed
    • samee15
    • By samee15 15th Jun 19, 1:58 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    samee15
    Coupon-Mad, as it's government policy should the POPLA adjudicator's regard it as law?
    i.e. should I be quoting NHS principles and calling out PE's disregard for public policy?
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 15th Jun 19, 2:25 PM
    • 4,893 Posts
    • 7,157 Thanks
    Half_way
    POPLa will not consider such things, they only see if a parking charge notice was issued in compliance with the BPA's code of practice.
    The British Parking Association limited is a private members trade association, which exists to benefit its members ( the parking company's)

    The BPA, ltd writes its own code of practice (COP) if the COP doesnt suit its members the BPA can re-write it as it sees fit.


    so if a car park is operated without planning permission, advertising consent and so on, or its operated in breach of an organisations rules ( ie NHS) the popla wont care, or even consider it.


    As mentioned, remind the Hospital again of its obligations and state that they are responsible for the actions of the parking company, tell them that you find the whole thing stressful that their parking contractors are harrassing you, and you dont appreciate being harassed/pursued and having to waste your time and money in dealing with a matter that the Hospital should be dealing with.


    Next get ready for/draw up a POPLA challenge as per the sticky thread.


    Keep a time sheet of how much time you are spending on this+any expenses, you can charge upto £19/hour but it would look better if you lowered this a bit to be reasonbable ( note in charging for your time you may not have much chance in putting in a claim for it, but it will show that you mean business and it will cause hassle at the other end)



    Submit an FOI request, as above.


    Complain to your MP, and anyone else.
    complain the media/local press make sure that you name names, and keep on hammering that under the NHS guidelines they are responsible, highlight the FOIO request and hammer home any areas the hospital is dis regarding that
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • samee15
    • By samee15 15th Jun 19, 3:47 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    samee15
    Noted that POPLA will not consider this. And all the tips you've mentioned, hopefully, my local MP will step in

    Will be sharing my POPLA appeal shortly!
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