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  • FIRST POST
    • johnnydriver
    • By johnnydriver 14th Jun 19, 4:24 PM
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    johnnydriver
    Business Usage and BIK
    • #1
    • 14th Jun 19, 4:24 PM
    Business Usage and BIK 14th Jun 19 at 4:24 PM
    HI

    I am told that when driving your own vehicle or a company car for work purposes, the ordinary commute must be deducted from the mileage claim even no journey to the ordinary place of work is made.

    In the scenario that my usual commute to my permanent place of work is a round trip of 50 miles. If i drove for business purposes, from my home 100 mile round trip, i would have to deduct 50 miles from my claim otherwise HMRC see me being reimbursed for a commute that i would've had to take had i not needed to make the work journey as a benefit in kind.

    In over 20 years of driving for work purposes i have never heard of this. I can find nothing in the HMRC guidance to suggest this either.

    Has anyone else ever heard of this and perhaps point me in the direction of the official guidance?


    Thanks
Page 1
    • DUTR
    • By DUTR 14th Jun 19, 4:34 PM
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    DUTR
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 4:34 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 4:34 PM
    Common sense should tell you that you deduct your commute mileage from home to office.
    Otherwise you are fiddling the taxman!
    Ask Alcapone about messing with them, for the sake of 14-22.50 is it worth it all?
    • johnnydriver
    • By johnnydriver 14th Jun 19, 6:20 PM
    • 6 Posts
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    johnnydriver
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 6:20 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 6:20 PM
    So if home is Liverpool, workplace is Manchester but I drive to London and back for work and do not go into work. I must deduct an imaginary journey from home to work that I didn't take?

    My point is where is the BIK? Surely mileage is reimbursed tax free by HMRC because there is no benefit. It merely compensates you for the fuel, insurance and wear and tear etc
    • DUTR
    • By DUTR 14th Jun 19, 6:47 PM
    • 12,183 Posts
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    DUTR
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 6:47 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 6:47 PM
    So if home is Liverpool, workplace is Manchester but I drive to London and back for work and do not go into work. I must deduct an imaginary journey from home to work that I didn't take?

    YES

    My point is where is the BIK? Surely mileage is reimbursed tax free by HMRC because there is no benefit. It merely compensates you for the fuel, insurance and wear and tear etc
    Originally posted by johnnydriver
    It's not about your point, you are claiming the ADDITIONAL mileage, not for the commute.

    ETA: if you were registered a home worker then you could claim the whole return journey.
    Last edited by DUTR; 14-06-2019 at 6:50 PM.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 14th Jun 19, 7:21 PM
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    DoaM
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:21 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:21 PM
    The easy way to resolve it (in the example given) is to claim the mileage from Manchester to London (and back), and deduct the normal commute mileage (Liverpool to Manchester and back).
    Diary of a madman
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    • johnnydriver
    • By johnnydriver 14th Jun 19, 7:36 PM
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    johnnydriver
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:36 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 19, 7:36 PM
    So can anyone actually point me to the official guidance that states imaginary commutes must be deducted from real life journeys?

    I just want to see where HMRC actually publish this
    • ruperts
    • By ruperts 14th Jun 19, 9:45 PM
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    ruperts
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 19, 9:45 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 19, 9:45 PM
    I think if it's classed as 'necessary attendance' then you could claim it all.

    Necessary attendance: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim32270

    Examples: https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim32011

    This example seems the most relevant: "Example 4 An employee lives in Oxford and travels to work in London at a daily cost of 30. One day she has to travel to a temporary workplace in Hereford, travelling directly from home at a cost of 34. She can deduct the full cost of 34."

    There doesn't seem to be any suggestion there that you would have to remove your ordinary commute. Not entirely sure though, I might be looking at the wrong things.
    Last edited by ruperts; 14-06-2019 at 9:49 PM.
    • BoGoF
    • By BoGoF 14th Jun 19, 10:20 PM
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    BoGoF
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:20 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:20 PM
    As far as HMRC are concerned the journey is the journey and no 'normsl commute' would need to be deducted when claiming tax relief from HMRC.

    However I suspect it is your employer that is telling you to restrict your claim for mileage from them? If so, they can set their own policy and not a lot you can do about it.
    • marlot
    • By marlot 15th Jun 19, 5:56 AM
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    marlot
    • #9
    • 15th Jun 19, 5:56 AM
    • #9
    • 15th Jun 19, 5:56 AM
    I am told that when driving your own vehicle or a company car for work purposes, the ordinary commute must be deducted from the mileage claim even no journey to the ordinary place of work is made...
    Originally posted by johnnydriver
    This was brought in where I worked, as a new rule. I don't believe there is an HMRC rule, but rather a company cost-cutting measure.

    Like you, I did a long commute to work (50 miles each way), so found I was rarely able to claim. I found that the rules allowed me to charge the full amount of a train ticket, so when I needed to travel on business, I took the train instead. Which cost them more, but was probably better for the environment.
    • neilmcl
    • By neilmcl 15th Jun 19, 8:05 AM
    • 13,521 Posts
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    neilmcl
    This was brought in where I worked, as a new rule. I don't believe there is an HMRC rule, but rather a company cost-cutting measure.

    Like you, I did a long commute to work (50 miles each way), so found I was rarely able to claim. I found that the rules allowed me to charge the full amount of a train ticket, so when I needed to travel on business, I took the train instead. Which cost them more, but was probably better for the environment.
    Originally posted by marlot
    Yes there very much is a set of rules surrounding this. HMRC don't consider commuting to and from your permanent place of work as a business journey and therefore not eligible for tax relief. It's been this way for as long as I've known it.

    Read the definitions in the link below - https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/employment-income-manual/eim32000
    Last edited by neilmcl; 15-06-2019 at 8:13 AM.
    • DUTR
    • By DUTR 15th Jun 19, 8:05 AM
    • 12,183 Posts
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    DUTR
    This was brought in where I worked, as a new rule. I don't believe there is an HMRC rule, but rather a company cost-cutting measure.

    Like you, I did a long commute to work (50 miles each way), so found I was rarely able to claim. I found that the rules allowed me to charge the full amount of a train ticket, so when I needed to travel on business, I took the train instead. Which cost them more, but was probably better for the environment.
    Originally posted by marlot
    My employer has always adopted this 'rule' and I've been there 30 years.
    I'd imagine the commute is already included in the personal tax code?
    • johnnydriver
    • By johnnydriver 15th Jun 19, 3:39 PM
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    johnnydriver
    Neil

    The issue here is that I am being forced to deduct my normal commute miles from a journey that involved NO commute.

    E.g, I drove in the opposite direction from the office from home worked for a few hours and then drove back home.

    I also believe this is a cost cutting measure where the employer is passing their costs onto me. Unless anyone anywhere is able to actually say where HMRC state this.
    • DUTR
    • By DUTR 15th Jun 19, 4:04 PM
    • 12,183 Posts
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    DUTR
    Neil

    The issue here is that I am being forced to deduct my normal commute miles from a journey that involved NO commute.

    E.g, I drove in the opposite direction from the office from home worked for a few hours and then drove back home.

    I also believe this is a cost cutting measure where the employer is passing their costs onto me. Unless anyone anywhere is able to actually say where HMRC state this.
    Originally posted by johnnydriver
    See here
    • JGB1955
    • By JGB1955 15th Jun 19, 4:28 PM
    • 351 Posts
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    JGB1955
    If your employer pays for your 'commute' it is treated as additional income and attracts income tax and national insurance.
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 15th Jun 19, 4:58 PM
    • 14,633 Posts
    • 13,071 Thanks
    zagfles
    HI

    I am told that when driving your own vehicle or a company car for work purposes, the ordinary commute must be deducted from the mileage claim even no journey to the ordinary place of work is made.
    Originally posted by johnnydriver
    That is not an HMRC rule. HMRC allow you to claim the full business mileage if you start a business journey from home, unless you stop at the office on your way for something "substantive". Even if you drive past your normal workplace on the way to a business meeting, the whole journey is claimable according to HMRC rules.

    There is an exception if the journey is substantially the same as your normal commute, eg to an office next door.

    However companies can have different rules to HMRC, they may insist you deduct commuting mileage. If so, you can claim tax relief on the difference, but you need to maintain 2 sets of mileage records, HMRC allowed mileage and company claimed mileage.
    In the scenario that my usual commute to my permanent place of work is a round trip of 50 miles. If i drove for business purposes, from my home 100 mile round trip, i would have to deduct 50 miles from my claim otherwise HMRC see me being reimbursed for a commute that i would've had to take had i not needed to make the work journey as a benefit in kind.
    That is rubbish. Unless as above you stop at the office for something substantive.
    In over 20 years of driving for work purposes i have never heard of this. I can find nothing in the HMRC guidance to suggest this either.

    Has anyone else ever heard of this and perhaps point me in the direction of the official guidance?


    Thanks
    This is aimed at employers but give full chaper and verse. See in particular 3.48 & 3.49
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782253/490_Employee_travel_-_a_tax_and_NICs_guide_for_employers.pdf
    • BoGoF
    • By BoGoF 15th Jun 19, 5:09 PM
    • 5,299 Posts
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    BoGoF
    OP - HMRC rules are of no relevance here. Your employer can have it's own policy - they don't have to pay you a penny at the end of the day. Don't know why they are making stuff up to justify their policy though.
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 15th Jun 19, 5:12 PM
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    zagfles
    Common sense should tell you that you deduct your commute mileage from home to office.
    Otherwise you are fiddling the taxman!
    Ask Alcapone about messing with them, for the sake of 14-22.50 is it worth it all?
    Originally posted by DUTR
    You're completely wrong. Common sense says no such thing. how you get into your normal workplace is down to you and no tax relief is available, but if you're going somewhere else that's fully claimable. You might save on the commute, but you might not, eg you might have a season ticket on the train, you might share a lift etc.

    That's why HMRC allow you to claim business journeys in full, without having to deduct an imaginary journey not made.
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 15th Jun 19, 5:15 PM
    • 14,633 Posts
    • 13,071 Thanks
    zagfles
    OP - HMRC rules are of no relevance here. Your employer can have it's own policy - they don't have to pay you a penny at the end of the day. Don't know why they are making stuff up to justify their policy though.
    Originally posted by BoGoF
    HMRC rules are completely relevant because the OP can get tax relief if his employer underpays him for mileage.

    Plus they shouldn't be lying and claiming it's HMRC rules.
    • DUTR
    • By DUTR 15th Jun 19, 5:23 PM
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    DUTR
    That is not an HMRC rule. HMRC allow you to claim the full business mileage if you start a business journey from home, unless you stop at the office on your way for something "substantive". Even if you drive past your normal workplace on the way to a business meeting, the whole journey is claimable according to HMRC rules.

    There is an exception if the journey is substantially the same as your normal commute, eg to an office next door.

    However companies can have different rules to HMRC, they may insist you deduct commuting mileage. If so, you can claim tax relief on the difference, but you need to maintain 2 sets of mileage records, HMRC allowed mileage and company claimed mileage. That is rubbish. Unless as above you stop at the office for something substantive. This is aimed at employers but give full chaper and verse. See in particular 3.48 & 3.49
    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/782253/490_Employee_travel_-_a_tax_and_NICs_guide_for_employers.pdf
    Originally posted by zagfles
    Interesting PDF file there, section 3, shows some examples , some indicate that the commute mileage should be deducted and other examples suggest not.
    However it is not me claiming, I and my employer allow to claim for extra mileage over and above the usual commute.
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 15th Jun 19, 5:47 PM
    • 14,633 Posts
    • 13,071 Thanks
    zagfles
    Interesting PDF file there, section 3, shows some examples , some indicate that the commute mileage should be deducted and other examples suggest not.
    However it is not me claiming, I and my employer allow to claim for extra mileage over and above the usual commute.
    Originally posted by DUTR
    Commute mileage is never "deducted" in HMRC rules. Commuting is not claimable, business journeys are. If you commute to the office and do some work, then do a business journey to a client, that's 2 journeys. The first is not claimable, the second is.

    If you go direct from home to the client that's all a business journey and is all claimable without any deduction. There's nothing in any HMRC rules that say you have to deduct mileage for a commute you didn't do!
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