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  • FIRST POST
    • gem1875
    • By gem1875 14th Jun 19, 11:34 AM
    • 29Posts
    • 11Thanks
    gem1875
    parking charge court letter advice
    • #1
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:34 AM
    parking charge court letter advice 14th Jun 19 at 11:34 AM
    Hello,


    I am after some advice. I have read much of the newbie threads and I have a few questions.


    My parking ticket was received in 2017 from VCS via myparkingcharge. We got the letter in the post and appealed via the instructions on the form using IPC. I then read that this was basically a kangaroo court and all appeals fail at this stage. We ignored the rest of the letters as we had a parking ticket that covers us for the time parked so we thought all was ok.


    Fast forward to now and we got out letter before court, I wrote back with the SAR letter requesting the full details and got no reply at all.


    We then got the county court letter, its dated 22nd May I logged on and said we would defend on the 4th June.


    Having come to sit down to prep my evidence I see that there is now photos online of the car and I cant see the ticket. I do not believe the photos have been online all this time as I don't recall seeing them but is it now not worth fighting if the ticket was not visible in the window?? I assume that's one of the conditions they stipulate. I still have the ticket and all the debt collection letters ect.


    But I am a little lost as to what my defence may be now and cant find any examples of similar situations.


    Should add I have tried to contact the land owner via my MP but its changed hands a few times so its taken some time, I may have the owner now but its a large company so not sure how successful that will be.


    Hope this all makes sense I have just had a baby and all this information is not sinking in as I would like it.
    Last edited by gem1875; 14-06-2019 at 11:36 AM.
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Jun 19, 11:40 AM
    • 40,617 Posts
    • 90,183 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:40 AM
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:40 AM
    Are there close up photos of the vehicle windscreen? I don't know about the IPC CoP, but the BPA CoP requires the operative to search the windscreen carefully to se if there is a ticket visible. You state that there was a ticket and the scammers have deliberately taken pics from a distance or certain angles to hide this fact, if you believe this to be the case.

    Follow the guide to court written by bargepole in post 2 of the NEWBES.
    Later on you will demand to see a contemporaneous copy of the contract as you do not believe the scammers have the authority to operate there.
    Get pics of the signs. Look on google maps etcetera to see if you can find any images from the road from around the date in question

    Complain to the landowner and your MP about this unregulated scam.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Jun 19, 11:57 AM
    • 15,216 Posts
    • 15,875 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:57 AM
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:57 AM
    Fast forward to now and we got out letter before court, I wrote back with the SAR letter requesting the full details and got no reply at all.

    You have a right to this so kick @rse.

    https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-freedom-of-information/refusing-a-request/

    But I am a little lost as to what my defence may be now and cant find any examples of similar situations.


    What is the situation?
    Last edited by The Deep; 14-06-2019 at 11:59 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • gem1875
    • By gem1875 14th Jun 19, 12:13 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    gem1875
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:13 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:13 PM
    Are there close up photos of the vehicle windscreen? I don't know about the IPC CoP, but the BPA CoP requires the operative to search the windscreen carefully to se if there is a ticket visible. You state that there was a ticket and the scammers have deliberately taken pics from a distance or certain angles to hide this fact, if you believe this to be the case.

    Follow the guide to court written by bargepole in post 2 of the NEWBES.
    Later on you will demand to see a contemporaneous copy of the contract as you do not believe the scammers have the authority to operate there.
    Get pics of the signs. Look on google maps etcetera to see if you can find any images from the road from around the date in question

    Complain to the landowner and your MP about this unregulated scam.
    Originally posted by Fruitcake


    The photos are not close up but you can see the windscreen makes me think the ticket may have fallen or slid out of sight, there is one close up of a clip where we keep all parking tickets we have bought. You cant see our ticket, it was a while ago so I cant recall if it was on the floor or down low when we got back to the car.


    I have tried the MP to get details of the landowner and its swapped hands several times but I am still working that line at the moment.


    I will look at the newbies threat you suggest. The signs in the carpark have all been updated since the time we parked there. There is a photo of the sign there at the time but the flash blocks the T&Cs so I cant see them.


    Thanks for the reply.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Jun 19, 12:19 PM
    • 25,020 Posts
    • 31,953 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:19 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:19 PM
    Start with the concise defence by member bargepole because it contains all the basics for a defence, regardless
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • gem1875
    • By gem1875 14th Jun 19, 12:21 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    gem1875
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:21 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:21 PM
    Fast forward to now and we got out letter before court, I wrote back with the SAR letter requesting the full details and got no reply at all.

    You have a right to this so kick @rse.

    https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-freedom-of-information/refusing-a-request/

    But I am a little lost as to what my defence may be now and cant find any examples of similar situations.


    What is the situation?
    Originally posted by The Deep

    I think I mean that I have now seen photos online that don't show any ticket so for whatever reason it wasn't visible in the pictures. I still have the ticket so I assume its either fallen low on the dash or was placed behind an old one so not fully visible I wasn't driving at the time so cant recall what happened when we got back to the car.


    I sent the SAR to get the photos as I assumed they must have some evidence to go this far. They have appeared online so I have only seen them today now wondering where I go from here.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 14th Jun 19, 12:33 PM
    • 5,679 Posts
    • 7,255 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:33 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:33 PM
    Is it possible the ticket WAS on display but the photos have been taken from side / low angles so this could nto be seen? Wouldnt be the first time.

    The defence is bloody simple
    Ticekt purchased
    Parking was paid for
    Any alleged failure to display, whcih is denied as tickets are normally placed...., is de minimis and there was no justification, commmercial or otherwise, for levying a charge.

    If you werent driving and they have nto met POFA requirements, then of course "no keeper liability" is another.
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Jun 19, 12:50 PM
    • 40,617 Posts
    • 90,183 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:50 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 19, 12:50 PM
    Request the SAR again, and complain to the ICO that the scammers didn't respond the first time. This assumes you provided proof of (non-photo) ID with the original request such as a copy of the vehicle V5.

    What we are saying about the ticket as that it could be sat on any part of the dashboard but the scammers deliberately photographed the car in such a way that the ticket can't be seen.
    What do the signs say about displaying a ticket? Does it specifically state a position such as the front windscreen? Even if it does, it could be interpreted that a ticket placed on the dashboard would satisfy that requirement.
    Do the signs say the ticket must be visible, or just displayed?

    It is quite possible that a person or persons unknown bounced up and down on the car with malice aforethought to deliberately dislodge the ticket. Now who would benefit from such a jolly jape do you think?
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th Jun 19, 2:06 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,809 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #9
    • 14th Jun 19, 2:06 PM
    • #9
    • 14th Jun 19, 2:06 PM
    We then got the county court letter, its dated 22nd May I logged on and said we would defend on the 4th June.
    Originally posted by gem1875
    I am wondering what that means. Did you defend on 4th June?

    It looks like you may have received a County Court Claim Form and it has an Issue Date of 22nd May. Is that right?

    Are you also saying that you logged on to MCOL and did the Acknowledgement of Service on 4th June?

    I am going to assume my guesses are right. Please confirm.
    But as your situation progresses you are going to need to be very clear about what you are writing if you want to win this case - as I'm sure you do.


    With a Claim Issue Date of 22nd May, and having done the Acknowledgement of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Monday 24th June 2019 to file your Defence.

    That's over a week away. Loads of time to produce a good Defence, but don't leave it to the last minute.


    When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as suggested here:
    1. Print your Defence.
    2. Sign it and date it.
    3. Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    4. Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    5. Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    6. Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defence received". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
    7. Do not be surprised to receive an early copy of the Claimant's Directions Questionnaire, they are just trying to keep you under pressure.
    8. Wait for your DQ from the CCBC, or download one from the internet, and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to find out exactly what to do with it.
    Last edited by KeithP; 14-06-2019 at 3:02 PM.
    .
    • gem1875
    • By gem1875 19th Jun 19, 2:05 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    gem1875
    I am wondering what that means. Did you defend on 4th June?

    It looks like you may have received a County Court Claim Form and it has an Issue Date of 22nd May. Is that right?

    Are you also saying that you logged on to MCOL and did the Acknowledgement of Service on 4th June?

    I am going to assume my guesses are right. Please confirm.
    But as your situation progresses you are going to need to be very clear about what you are writing if you want to win this case - as I'm sure you do.



    Originally posted by KeithP

    Yes 4th June was the date I did the acknowledgement of service.


    I am going to do the defence tonight. I need to do a bit more reading as like you say I want to win this but at the moment Im not very hopeful.


    Thanks for the guidance.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Jun 19, 10:33 AM
    • 76,548 Posts
    • 89,887 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    We are always hopeful given the 99% win rate here and ability to smash the fake costs even if a person loses (as long as Defendants take out advice on board throughout).

    received in 2017 from VCS via myparkingcharge.
    Ahem, there's a pre-written defence for tat in the NEWBIES thread.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • gem1875
    • By gem1875 22nd Jun 19, 8:13 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    gem1875
    We are always hopeful given the 99% win rate here and ability to smash the fake costs even if a person loses (as long as Defendants take out advice on board throughout).

    Ahem, there's a pre-written defence for tat in the NEWBIES thread.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad


    Would you be able to give me the link make sure I'm looking at the right bit as I've read that much I'm hoping I have the correct one .


    Once I have that should I add my defence about having a ticket onto this as well?


    The help is very much appreciated.
    Last edited by gem1875; 22-06-2019 at 8:21 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Jun 19, 8:17 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,809 Thanks
    KeithP
    gem1875, you can easily find the NEWBIES thread.

    I gave you a link to the NEWBIES thread in my earlier post.
    .
    • gem1875
    • By gem1875 22nd Jun 19, 8:24 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    gem1875
    gem1875, you can easily find the NEWBIES thread.

    I gave you a link to the NEWBIES thread in my earlier post.
    Originally posted by KeithP


    Sorry Keith, I didn't phrase that right. I have read the NEWBIES thread and know where it is but I was after the exact link to the defence people keep mentioning as I have read them and am not 100% as to the one people keep referring to, I just wanted to be sure I was using the right defence advice for my situation.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 22nd Jun 19, 8:27 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,809 Thanks
    KeithP
    Did you not see this text in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread:
    A 2018 defence re VCS and a 'THIS IS NOT A PARKING CHARGE' which they then call a parking charge later:
    .
    • gem1875
    • By gem1875 22nd Jun 19, 8:39 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    gem1875
    Did you not see this text in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread:
    Originally posted by KeithP

    Thanks Keith, would you suggest I add my other defence which is I did actually have a ticket and had paid for my time in the car park?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Jun 19, 11:37 PM
    • 76,548 Posts
    • 89,887 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You do obviously need to adapt the example defence to suit your case.

    We ant you to show us what you come up with, as this is your case, but clearly the example I told you about (which was easy to find in seconds in the NEWBIES thread, which you could have searched for the word 'VCS') is a base to start with, then add a point or two about your facts, WITHOUT saying who was driving, unless that cat is already out of the bag.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • gem1875
    • By gem1875 23rd Jun 19, 7:45 PM
    • 29 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    gem1875
    You do obviously need to adapt the example defence to suit your case.

    We ant you to show us what you come up with, as this is your case, but clearly the example I told you about (which was easy to find in seconds in the NEWBIES thread, which you could have searched for the word 'VCS') is a base to start with, then add a point or two about your facts, WITHOUT saying who was driving, unless that cat is already out of the bag.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad


    These are the points I have used, only bit Im not to sure of is point 5. If we have a ticket does that mean we did in fact enter into a contract with them? ;




    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. The facts are that the vehicle, registration XXXXX, of which the Defendant is the registered keeper, was parked on the material date in a marked bay, and had a valid
    ticket to be parked in that bay. The ticket bought can be produced.


    3. The claimant failed to include a copy of their written contract nor any detail or reason for - nor clear particulars pertaining to - this claim (Practice Directions 16 7.3(1) and 7C 1.4(3A) refer). Letters requesting this information were sent with no reply.

    4. The Particulars of Claim state that the Defendant; was the registered keeper and the driver of the vehicle. The Claimant has failed to identify a Cause of Action. As such, the Claim fails to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4, or with Civil Practice Direction 16, paras. 7.3 to 7.5. Further, the particulars of the claim do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies how the terms were
    breached. I have had to cover all eventualities and this has denied me a fair chance to defend this in an informed way.

    5. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    6. Further and in the alternative, it is denied that the claimant's signage sets out the terms in a sufficiently clear manner which would be capable of binding any reasonable person reading them. In the photo provided by VCS as evidence it cannot be seen any instruction on how or where the ticket should be displayed.



    7. I believe the photos of the car are taken in a way to avoid being able to see the ticket displayed in the window.

    7. The terms on the Claimant's signage are also displayed in a font which is too small to be read in detail from a passing vehicle, and is in such a position that anyone attempting to read the tiny font would be unable to do so easily. It is, therefore, denied that the Claimant's
    signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.


    8. The IAS decision should be disregarded; it is ostensibly described as an appeal service, yet the Assessors' names remain secret. No figures or reports are published by the IAS. There is no scrutiny board, unlike POPLA. The IAS decisions in the public domain blatantly disregard recognised standards of law or justice.

    9. The Claimant is put to strict proof that it has sufficient proprietary interest in the land, or that it has the necessary authorisation from the landowner to issue parking charge notices, and to pursue payment by means of litigation. I and my MP have tried to contact the land owner to try and rectify this issue but have been unable to identify them to do so.

    10. The Claimant may try to rely upon ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis [2015] UKSC 67, ('the Beavis case') yet such an assertion is not supported by any similarity in the location, circumstances nor signage. Absent any offer or agreement on a charge, the Beavis case does not assist the claimant and in fact, supports this defence. Further, there is no ‘legitimate interest’ served by ticketing of a car which has a bought and paid for ticket.

    11. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. The claim includes an additional £60, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.

    12. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.
    • gem1875
    • By gem1875 24th Jun 19, 8:32 AM
    • 29 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    gem1875
    Can anyone advise if this applies to my case given that I did in fact have a ticket?


    5. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.


    Thanks
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 24th Jun 19, 8:47 AM
    • 12,540 Posts
    • 17,476 Thanks
    beamerguy
    11. The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4, at Section 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper, in this case £100. The claim includes an additional £60, for which no calculation or explanation is given, and which appears to be an attempt at double recovery.

    You must point the judge to this recent decision by a District Judge about ABUSE OF PROCESS
    You can refer to the case number shown here
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75929156#post75929156
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
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