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  • FIRST POST
    • k4ren2006
    • By k4ren2006 14th Jun 19, 10:48 AM
    • 43Posts
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    k4ren2006
    VCS County Claim
    • #1
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:48 AM
    VCS County Claim 14th Jun 19 at 10:48 AM
    Hi there.

    I'm starting a new thread (hope this is okay) as I'm having trouble with a defence.

    The claimant has started proceedings for an alleged charge notice 4 and a half years ago.

    Their particulars state date but no address. It simply says the 1st 3 digits of a postcode which encompasses an entire city centre.

    Going back to the date - the defendant didn't own (or have access to) that vehicle until some months later.

    Shall I keep this simple with the following defence or is there something else I should add....

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what address the alleged contravention took place.

    3. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.

    Name
    Signature
    Date

    Obviously, the vehicle owner for that date has been informed and is happy to prove he owned the car at the time and did not receive a CN. I'm unsure whether to mention the keeper details as I'd like to hold back on this in case there was a CN at a later date so don't really want to be going through this again.

    Thanks in advance....Karen x
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Jun 19, 10:56 AM
    • 40,617 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:56 AM
    • #2
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:56 AM
    You need to do the AoS first if you have received an actual claim.

    You need to clarify the situation regarding the owner and keeper, who can be two different people. Unless someone has specifically told the scammers the identity of the owner, the PPC will be pursuing the keeper.

    You should use the guide to court written by bargepole you will find in post 2 of the NEWBIES.
    If you were not the keeper at the time of the alleged event, you should state this in your defence and therefore the scammers are making a claim from the wrong person.
    If you have proof from the DVLA when you became the keeper you should include this or at least make sure you have it ready.

    If you can prove you were not the keeper at the time, you should complain to the DVLA that the scammers had no business obtaining your personal data from them.

    In all cases you should complain to your MP about this unregulated scam.

    At this stage I would not drop the keeper at the date of the alleged event in it, at least don't so it if you like them. Let the scammers do their own dirty work.

    One last thing. It's not a good idea to use your real name on here if that is what you have done. You should contact a board guide and ask them to change your username to something that cannot identify you.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 14-06-2019 at 11:00 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Jun 19, 10:59 AM
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    The Deep
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:59 AM
    • #3
    • 14th Jun 19, 10:59 AM
    They appear to have obtained your details from the DVLA without cause. Why not enter a counter claim and report them to their ATA?

    You have not mentioned in the defence that you were neither the driver nor RK at the time of the alleged breach of contract.
    Last edited by The Deep; 14-06-2019 at 11:01 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • k4ren2006
    • By k4ren2006 14th Jun 19, 11:03 AM
    • 43 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    k4ren2006
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:03 AM
    • #4
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:03 AM
    Thanks that what I thought. Yep, we have the email of the data protection officer at the DVLA and will be forwarding him the details so he can look into this and no, they are not going to know the details of the keeper but he is absolutely certain there was no CN whilst he was the owner and keeper and sole user of the vehicle.

    I'm reluctant to mention the vehicle was owned by someone else until we have proof from the DVLA (V888 will sort that) and I don't know if we have time.

    AoS has been filed. We're happy to drag them to court if necessary but we're absolutely certain there was no CN on that date for that vehicle so I'm curious to see what they've got...a SARS perhaps?
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Jun 19, 11:08 AM
    • 40,617 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:08 AM
    • #5
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:08 AM
    You don't need to mention anything about who the keeper was at the time. Most people wouldn't know in any case.
    You do need to state in your defence that you were not the keeper, and you do need to complain to the DVLA pronto.
    At the same time, ask when and who your data was requested.

    I agree with The Deep that a counterclaim for DPA/GDPR breach is in order. The going rate for this if you win is about 500, and you do not need to prove any loss in order to claim it.

    Please don't forget to complain to your MP about this when you get the time.

    Once this is all over, you might want to think about taking the DVLA to task for releasing your personal data without due diligence. They simply hand it out like confetti using an automated system without any human checks to see if the request is valid.
    This is the sort of thing your MP should be told as well.
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 14-06-2019 at 11:13 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Jun 19, 11:16 AM
    • 40,617 Posts
    • 90,182 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:16 AM
    • #6
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:16 AM
    You should also send an SAR to the scammers as per the NEWBIES to see if they come up with a copy of a PCN.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • k4ren2006
    • By k4ren2006 14th Jun 19, 11:16 AM
    • 43 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    k4ren2006
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:16 AM
    • #7
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:16 AM
    That's how we have the data protection officers email address as we've been victim to them handing out our data previously (for another mater).

    In fairness, they did investigate fully but the company in question was able to bamboozle them into believing it was a mistake - even the ICO sided with them so I don't take kindly to this sort of thing.

    Thanks for your help
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Jun 19, 11:17 AM
    • 15,216 Posts
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    The Deep
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:17 AM
    • #8
    • 14th Jun 19, 11:17 AM
    Do as FC says and you could do them some damage, several judges are getting !!!!ed off with this particular scammer.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th Jun 19, 1:41 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,805 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #9
    • 14th Jun 19, 1:41 PM
    • #9
    • 14th Jun 19, 1:41 PM
    What is the Issue Date on your Claim Form?

    Did it come from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton, or from somewhere else?
    .
    • k4ren2006
    • By k4ren2006 14th Jun 19, 2:40 PM
    • 43 Posts
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    k4ren2006
    It's a legitimate claim form and we've been online and filed the AoS.

    Their particulars of claim are horrendously sketchy with the claimant stating the CN's contravention taking place at the first half of a city's postcode...surely that's a bit naughty..sorry judge, I don't remember where I was, such a date, 4 and a half years ago within miles and miles of a city and outskirts...unbelievable isn't it? Plus the added bonus of someone else owning, keeping and user of said vehicle
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th Jun 19, 3:00 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
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    KeithP
    I guess you missed my questions.

    Here they are again...
    What is the Issue Date on your Claim Form?

    Did it come from the County Court Business Centre in Northampton, or from somewhere else?
    Originally posted by KeithP
    .
    • k4ren2006
    • By k4ren2006 14th Jun 19, 3:10 PM
    • 43 Posts
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    k4ren2006
    Sorry about that...it's Friday and my head is a bit fuzzy. The issue date on the claim form is 28th May 2019 and it has come from the County Court Business Centre (St Katherine's House and so on)
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th Jun 19, 3:16 PM
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    KeithP
    The issue date on the claim form is 28th May 2019 and it has come from the County Court Business Centre (St Katherine's House and so on)
    Originally posted by k4ren2006
    With a Claim Issue Date of 28th May, and having done the Acknowledgement of Service in a timely manner, you have until 4pm on Monday 1st July 2019 to file your Defence.

    That's over two weeks away. Loads of time to produce a perfect Defence, but don't leave it to the last minute.


    When you are happy with the content, your Defence should be filed via email as suggested here:
    1. Print your Defence.
    2. Sign it and date it.
    3. Scan the signed document back in and save it as a pdf.
    4. Send that pdf as an email attachment to CCBCAQ@Justice.gov.uk
    5. Just put the claim number and the word Defence in the email title, and in the body of the email something like 'Please find my Defence attached'.
    6. Log into MCOL after a few days to see if the Claim is marked "defence received". If not chase the CCBC until it is.
    7. Do not be surprised to receive an early copy of the Claimant's Directions Questionnaire, they are just trying to keep you under pressure.
    8. Wait for your DQ from the CCBC, or download one from the internet, and then re-read post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky thread to find out exactly what to do with it.
    .
    • k4ren2006
    • By k4ren2006 14th Jun 19, 3:24 PM
    • 43 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    k4ren2006
    Thanks..will let you know how we get on
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 14th Jun 19, 3:40 PM
    • 17,898 Posts
    • 21,805 Thanks
    KeithP
    Whatever you do, please consider re-writing that Defence you posted earlier.

    There are several example Defences in post #2 of the NEWBIES thread - link in my earlier post. Take particular notice of those concise Defences written by Bargepole.

    Perhaps post your Defence here for critique before filing - but that's up to you.
    Last edited by KeithP; 14-06-2019 at 3:44 PM.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jun 19, 5:35 PM
    • 76,532 Posts
    • 89,870 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    It simply says the 1st 3 digits of a postcode which encompasses an entire city centre.
    If you are in Swansea you need a miracle with some of their Judges. Although this person got a discontinuance last year re a SA1 claim from VCS:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5811811&page=4

    Why not simply copy the 'not a CN' VCS defence example from the NEWBIES thread and adapt it if the SAR shows there was no red card on the windscreen after all (read the example, it's in the NEWBIES thread for people to use).

    Or adapt the defence in that SA1 thread, but show us first as a year is a long time here.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 14-06-2019 at 5:38 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • k4ren2006
    • By k4ren2006 18th Jun 19, 12:02 PM
    • 43 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    k4ren2006
    Hi everyone.

    Thanks so much for all your help so far....hopefully this will suffice....

    Statement of Defence

    1. The Defendant denies that the Claimant is entitled to relief in the sum claimed, or at all.

    2. Notwithstanding that the claimant claims no right to pursue the defendant as the registered keeper under The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA 2012); the Claimant has failed to meet the conditions of the Act and has never acquired any right to pursue the Defendant in this capacity if they cannot identify the driver.

    3. It is denied that the Claimant served the required documents with statutory wording as prescribed under the POFA and as such, there can be no keeper liability in any event.

    4. The Claimant alleges that there was a charge notice for a contravention at 'SA1' but no terms are given nor is any valid breach established.

    5. The place of the alleged breach is given as SA1 which contains many registered parcels of land as well as registered leaseholds on parts of these parcels of land, therefore strict proof is required as to the exact site of the breach.

    6. No attempt was made by the claimant to provide suitable information or evidence of this breach despite the Defendant submitting a Subject Access Request.

    7. The Particulars of Claim does not state whether they believe the Defendant was the registered keeper and/or the driver of the vehicle. These assertions indicate that the Claimant has failed to identify a Cause of Action, and is simply offering a menu of choices. As such, the Claim fails to comply with Civil Procedure Rule 16.4, or with Civil Practice Direction 16, paras. 7.3 to 7.5. Further, the particulars of the claim do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies how the terms were breached.

    8. . Due to the sparseness of the particulars, it is unclear as to what legal basis the claim is brought, whether for breach of contract, contractual liability, or trespass. However, it is denied that the Defendant, or any driver of the vehicle, entered into any contractual agreement with the Claimant, whether express, implied, or by conduct.

    9. The particulars of claim do not meet the requirements of Practice Direction 16 7.5 as there is nothing which specifies how the terms were breached. Indeed, the particulars of the claim are not clear and concise as is required by CPR 16.4 1(a).

    10. The Defendant believes that their personal details have been obtained unlawfully by the Claimant and asks that the Court does not to assist the Claimant to benefit from a wrongdoing. (Ex turpi causa non oritur actio).

    11. In summary, it is the Defendant's position that the claim discloses no cause of action, is without merit, and has no real prospect of success. Accordingly, the Court is invited to strike out the claim of its own initiative, using its case management powers pursuant to CPR 3.4.

    I believe the facts contained in this Defence are true.

    Name
    Signature
    Date
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 18th Jun 19, 12:13 PM
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    The Deep
    Acquaint yourself with the costs for unreasonable behaviour under CPR27.14(2)(g).

    Have you read Beamer Guy's recent thread about abuse of process? Have you complained to the ATA?

    Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams so complain also to your MP.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 18th Jun 19, 12:17 PM
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    beamerguy
    Acquaint yourself with the costs for unreasonable behaviour under CPR27.14(2)(g).

    Have you read Beamer Guy's recent thread about abuse of process? Have you complained to the ATA?
    Originally posted by The Deep
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75930070#post75930070
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • k4ren2006
    • By k4ren2006 18th Jun 19, 12:34 PM
    • 43 Posts
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    k4ren2006
    They are only seeking the alleged CN amount and the court fee
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