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  • FIRST POST
    • ddiane
    • By ddiane 13th Jun 19, 3:59 PM
    • 17Posts
    • 2Thanks
    ddiane
    IAS appeal draft for Uk parking limited parking fine disabled badge - Windsor
    • #1
    • 13th Jun 19, 3:59 PM
    IAS appeal draft for Uk parking limited parking fine disabled badge - Windsor 13th Jun 19 at 3:59 PM
    Hello,

    My mother recently got issued parking fine on the parking (Castle car park in Windsor) not realising you had to pay and display as she had blue badge she assumed it was free like the other car park right across. Her right leg is crippled - she cannot walk long distance and without assistance so didn’t see the tiny warnings for blue badge holder. She recently appealed and got rejected saying to go through IAS which from many forums here is useless, is there any way she can appeal this?

    Any advice would be appreciated thank you.

    Update: appeal rejected. Forwarded to IAS for further appeal.

    More detail: My mother had parked the car with her BB at around 2 o clock to go to the post office and came back at around 4.40 ish literally second after PCN was issued. Her right leg is crippled with severe arthritis at the ankle and knee and she cannot walk unaided/unassisted and Windsor is uphill so she has to take lot of break. The appeal was made by mother who named herself as the driver and used 'I' (the big no no in the appeal).

    Here's the draft.

    Dear Sir/Madam

    As the keeper of the above vehicle, I wish to appeal the parking charge notice UK parking Ltd issued against the mentioned vehicle. I believe the parking charge notice should be cancelled based on the following grounds:


    Inadequate and Insufficient IPC Compliant Signage
    (would attach castle car park sign)
    The signage on entry to the land is improper and insufficient. As suggested under Schedule 1 of the IPC CoP “The sign must be readable from far enough away so that drivers can read all of the Group A and Group B text without needing to look more than 10 degrees away from the road ahead”. After revisiting the site since receiving the NtK, signage on entry to the land does not meet this criteria.
    The signage (Sign1) is written in capital letters. The British Dyslexia Association and Gov.uk state that “Avoid text in block capitals: this is much harder to read”. This means that the signage provided can be argued as not easily legible and can cause problems for any driver that has dyslexia.
    Additionally, the IPC CoP states under Schedule 1 that signs should “include a minimum of one phrase from Group A”.To clarify this point, Group A phrases are stated as the following :
    Pay and display [free for blue badge holders]
    [x minutes/hours] free parking [for customers only]
    Pay on exit
    Pay [on foot/at machine] when leaving
    Parking for [business name] customers only
    Permit Holders Only
    As can be seen in attachment Sign1, there is no Group A text on this signage.

    The alleged breach took place in Castle Car Park in Windsor. Having subsequently visited the site, the main sign at the immediate vehicle entrance to the carpark where it says private land is barely noticeable as drivers who, unable to stop at that point in the road, rightly strive to accord with legal and safe driving practice.

    The nearest pay and display parking meter, at the entrance displays no signs that suggest BB must pay and display ticket. One must travel to the end, which the driver due to disability cannot, and even then, BB must pay signs are written in very small font and hidden behind by PAY HERE poster.

    The Charge is a disguised breach
    The wording of the signage states that there is a “penalty charge for failing to display a valid ticket”. The NtK (attachment NtK1) states that there was an “Unauthorised Parking Event”. As such, I contend that this charge is not a contractual fee or tariff (consideration), but a breach. A contractual fee/tariff arrangement would not need parking to be authorised and would consider parking at any price or fee.

    ** For now, this is all I have, I know that BB are protected under 2010 Equality Act but I'm not sure how to word that here....

    TL;DR private land in main sign very small, won't be able to safely stop the car to check as it's right next to the road and would disrupt the traffic.

    parking meter by the entrance and most convenient, the picture of the car park shows there's no instructions about blue badge.

    Blue badge must pay sign is at the far end of the parking lot and is hidden by the PAY HERE sign at the bottom in very small font.

    Please please help me. I would very much appreciate any input....

    Thank you.
    Last edited by ddiane; 18-06-2019 at 10:44 PM.
Page 1
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 13th Jun 19, 4:07 PM
    • 6,716 Posts
    • 6,807 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    • #2
    • 13th Jun 19, 4:07 PM
    • #2
    • 13th Jun 19, 4:07 PM
    No, unless she can appeal to or approach the landowner if it was a retail park, restaurant or similar and ask for it to be cancelled on the basis of spending money at their establishment(s). Otherwise sit back and wait for the LBA and defend it in small claims court. Not as frightening as it seems, please read the NEWBIE thread for full advice.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jun 19, 4:14 PM
    • 25,058 Posts
    • 32,035 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 13th Jun 19, 4:14 PM
    • #3
    • 13th Jun 19, 4:14 PM
    she needs to read her blue booklet, which tells her that the rules are different on private land and the BB isnt valid for parking on private land , making assumptions costs money


    YOU can download the same booklet as a pdf and read it yourself using adobe reader


    due to her condition, its the EA2010 that protects her on private land and the BB is a mere indicator of her eligibility under the EA2010

    she MUST comply with the rules for parking on private land , including any payments and timescales

    at this moment in time there is little that can be done, unless a landowner complaint gets it waived

    the PPC has 6 years to take her to her local court for payment and enforcement
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 13th Jun 19, 4:45 PM
    • 3,972 Posts
    • 6,331 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #4
    • 13th Jun 19, 4:45 PM
    • #4
    • 13th Jun 19, 4:45 PM
    This car park has always been a honey trap, they have been fleecing tourists here for years, one of the scams they get up to is the time being out on the pay and display machines.
    • ddiane
    • By ddiane 13th Jun 19, 10:35 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    ddiane
    • #5
    • 13th Jun 19, 10:35 PM
    • #5
    • 13th Jun 19, 10:35 PM
    Thank you - I’ve read the faq and thought since this is to do with blue badge it might be a bit different. Is there’s a way to know the landlord of the parking lot?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 19, 10:40 PM
    • 76,841 Posts
    • 90,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 19, 10:40 PM
    • #6
    • 13th Jun 19, 10:40 PM
    Parking lot = American! People watch too many US films. You mean car park.



    Usually just Googling the place finds articles about who runs it. I hope you discover that it's the Council who own it, because if so, one answer to avoid her being sued, is to PAY IT (ONLY if it's a Council site) then complain to the Council, then to the Local Government Ombudsman, citing this case:

    https://www.lgo.org.uk/assets/attach/4521/REPORT%2017004169%20KENT%20CC.pdf
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Jun 19, 10:42 PM
    • 17,988 Posts
    • 21,957 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 19, 10:42 PM
    • #7
    • 13th Jun 19, 10:42 PM
    Is there’s a way to know the landlord of the parking lot?
    Originally posted by ddiane
    Yes.

    1) Ask the local council who pays the Non Domestic Rates on the site.

    2) Ask HM Land Registry.

    Neither may understand what a 'parking lot' is. Can you come up with another term?
    .
    • ddiane
    • By ddiane 18th Jun 19, 10:31 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    ddiane
    • #8
    • 18th Jun 19, 10:31 PM
    • #8
    • 18th Jun 19, 10:31 PM
    Would this image do to support my appeal:

    You can view them here sorry but it won’t let me upload direct link please get rid of bracket and space

    ibb (.) co/
    jRXNBx9
    87hsQ1j
    zmRVyw4
    MNqwJyX
    VJDgD3K
    94fG2KZ
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Jun 19, 10:32 PM
    • 76,841 Posts
    • 90,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 18th Jun 19, 10:32 PM
    • #9
    • 18th Jun 19, 10:32 PM
    Can you also copy your earlier longer post here please?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 18th Jun 19, 10:36 PM
    • 40,482 Posts
    • 24,534 Thanks
    Quentin
    Hello, I previously posted a question about parking ticket on private car park in Windsor. The infamous castle car park. Link to my previous post: Uk parking limited parking fine disabled badge - windsor (sorry won't let me post link)

    As expected, the appeal had come back rejected and was advised to appeal to IAS which in this forum is more commonly known as kangaroo court. I was wondering if you could kindly go through my draft (it's lot of copy and paste from other threads here who made appeals) and would very much appreciate your more wise guidance,

    What I've noticed about this castle car park is misleading name, insufficient signage and hidden disabled parking warning. The ticketing officer who took the warnings picture clearly showed the image of blue badge hidden by PAY HERE in very small writing and instruction placed at the end of the car park. (*I'd be willing to share the picture if you want to see how it is).

    More detail: My mother had parked the car with her BB at around 2 o clock to go to the post office and came back at around 4.40 ish literally second after PCN was issued. Her right leg is crippled with severe arthritis at the ankle and knee and she cannot walk unaided/unassisted and Windsor is uphill so she has to take lot of break. The appeal was made by mother who named herself as the driver and used 'I' (the big no no in the appeal).

    Here's the draft.

    Dear Sir/Madam

    As the keeper of the above vehicle, I wish to appeal the parking charge notice UK parking Ltd issued against the mentioned vehicle. I believe the parking charge notice should be cancelled based on the following grounds:


    Inadequate and Insufficient IPC Compliant Signage
    (would attach castle car park sign)
    The signage on entry to the land is improper and insufficient. As suggested under Schedule 1 of the IPC CoP “The sign must be readable from far enough away so that drivers can read all of the Group A and Group B text without needing to look more than 10 degrees away from the road ahead”. After revisiting the site since receiving the NtK, signage on entry to the land does not meet this criteria.
    The signage (Sign1) is written in capital letters. The British Dyslexia Association and Gov.uk state that “Avoid text in block capitals: this is much harder to read”. This means that the signage provided can be argued as not easily legible and can cause problems for any driver that has dyslexia.
    Additionally, the IPC CoP states under Schedule 1 that signs should “include a minimum of one phrase from Group A”.To clarify this point, Group A phrases are stated as the following :
    Pay and display [free for blue badge holders]
    [x minutes/hours] free parking [for customers only]
    Pay on exit
    Pay [on foot/at machine] when leaving
    Parking for [business name] customers only
    Permit Holders Only
    As can be seen in attachment Sign1, there is no Group A text on this signage.

    The alleged breach took place in Castle Car Park in Windsor. Having subsequently visited the site, the main sign at the immediate vehicle entrance to the carpark where it says private land is barely noticeable as drivers who, unable to stop at that point in the road, rightly strive to accord with legal and safe driving practice.

    The nearest pay and display parking meter, at the entrance displays no signs that suggest BB must pay and display ticket. One must travel to the end, which the driver due to disability cannot, and even then, BB must pay signs are written in very small font and hidden behind by PAY HERE poster.

    The Charge is a disguised breach
    The wording of the signage states that there is a “penalty charge for failing to display a valid ticket”. The NtK (attachment NtK1) states that there was an “Unauthorised Parking Event”. As such, I contend that this charge is not a contractual fee or tariff (consideration), but a breach. A contractual fee/tariff arrangement would not need parking to be authorised and would consider parking at any price or fee.

    ** For now, this is all I have, I know that BB are protected under 2010 Equality Act but I'm not sure how to word that here....

    TL;DR private land in main sign very small, won't be able to safely stop the car to check as it's right next to the road and would disrupt the traffic.

    parking meter by the entrance and most convenient, the picture of the car park shows there's no instructions about blue badge.

    Blue badge must pay sign is at the far end of the parking lot and is hidden by the PAY HERE sign at the bottom in very small font.

    Please please help me. I would very much appreciate any input....

    Thank you.
    Originally posted by ddiane
    Copied from OP's duplicate thread
    • ddiane
    • By ddiane 18th Jun 19, 10:41 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    ddiane
    Thank you very much
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Jun 19, 11:13 PM
    • 76,841 Posts
    • 90,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    We didn't advise you to try IAS.

    You will most likely lose, and are better leaving it and saving it all for a proper hearing at your local court (no CCJ, no risk, no huge costs, no big deal and a fairer judge).

    The ticketing officer who took the warnings picture clearly showed the image of blue badge hidden by PAY HERE in very small writing and instruction placed at the end of the car park. (*I'd be willing to share the picture if you want to see how it is).
    Yes please, but I can't unpick your link even when closing all the gaps.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 18th Jun 19, 11:23 PM
    • 17,988 Posts
    • 21,957 Thanks
    KeithP
    Your links:

    https://ibb.co/jRXNBx9
    https://ibb.co/87hsQ1j
    https://ibb.co/zmRVyw4
    https://ibb.co/MNqwJyX
    https://ibb.co/VJDgD3K
    https://ibb.co/94fG2KZ
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Jun 19, 11:32 PM
    • 76,841 Posts
    • 90,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Not only can they not spell 'separate' but where on that sign does it tell you how much this imaginary 'parking charge notice' actually is?

    If the signs don't say how much the PCN 'fine' is, then the basic elements of a contract - meeting of minds, clear terms, certainty of contractual sum, consideration and acceptance - are missing.

    How can you know how much the penalty is - 10p? £100? £1000?

    For that reason, do an IAS appeal on that basis.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 18-06-2019 at 11:34 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • ddiane
    • By ddiane 19th Jun 19, 8:28 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    ddiane
    Thank you - I understand people here says IAS is a big joke and I’ve emailed uk parking ltd for POPLA code instead - whether they do give me the code I’m not sure as I found out here they are member of IPC not BPA...

    Right I’ll do that insufficient signage and your noting of missing how much penalty fine is..
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 19th Jun 19, 8:34 AM
    • 40,482 Posts
    • 24,534 Thanks
    Quentin
    Thank you - I understand people here says IAS is a big joke and I’ve emailed uk parking ltd for POPLA code instead - whether they do give me the code I’m not sure as I found out here they are member of IPC not BPA...

    Right I’ll do that insufficient signage and your noting of missing how much penalty fine is..
    Originally posted by ddiane
    Have you read#14 above,??

    If so, why this nonsense about now requesting a popla code???

    From an IPC member!
    Last edited by Quentin; 19-06-2019 at 8:36 AM.
    • ddiane
    • By ddiane 19th Jun 19, 8:36 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    ddiane
    I did read the faq and I’ve found out it was iPC me never after I asked them the code... yes it was stupid of me but in here people say you have a better chance of winning with popla than IAS
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th Jun 19, 8:42 AM
    • 15,307 Posts
    • 15,961 Thanks
    The Deep
    You mention several times that it is not clear that disabled people must pay. I am puzzled why you think that they should get subsidised parking.

    Furthermore, in your OP you state this

    The wording of the signage states that there is a “penalty charge for failing …"

    I very much doubt that the word "penalty" is used as this would blow their case out of the water.

    Accuracy/ is a sine qua non in these matters so please read the stickie/FAQS again and again until you have them off pat.

    If you had read them youu would know that this statement I’ve emailed uk parking ltd for POPLA code instead - is a nonsence

    Please take more care in future. A misplaced place word can mean the difference between winning and losing in court, and, more importantly, wastes out time.
    Last edited by The Deep; 19-06-2019 at 8:51 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • ddiane
    • By ddiane 19th Jun 19, 8:47 AM
    • 17 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    ddiane
    We didn’t notice it was private parking because the word private land was written in small font, and the picture that says penalty for failing, this was right at the end of the parking not at the entrance where most nearest parking meters were and most convenient. My mother would had to literally drag her right leg to see the small warning sign because you can’t see from distance..
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 19th Jun 19, 8:57 AM
    • 15,307 Posts
    • 15,961 Thanks
    The Deep
    … picture that says penalty for failing, …

    Have they actually l used the word "penalty"?

    I cannot stress enough how important the answer to this question is.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
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