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  • FIRST POST
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 11th Jun 19, 4:40 PM
    • 45Posts
    • 18Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    Parking charge and admin fee from hire company
    • #1
    • 11th Jun 19, 4:40 PM
    Parking charge and admin fee from hire company 11th Jun 19 at 4:40 PM
    Hi everyone, I have read through the sticky post and the FAQs but I am still a little bit worried and confused. Two things:
    1) This morning I received an email from a van hire firm saying they were charging me TWO admin fees for two separate car parking charges in the same weekend. Friday for parking outside my building to load the van and Monday for unloading it (we were picking up some items we had in storage). They informed me that they had my credit card details on file from the rental agreement and they would automatically deduct the £70 (2 x £35). Are they allowed to do this!?
    2) I have not yet received my actual notice from UK Carpark Management Ltd as to the exact nature of the violation, the car hire company said they will be re-issuing me the fine directly. If I only have a certain amount of time to appeal or to pay a reduced fine, will this delay affect that?

    After looking around the area I parked this morning I did find a sign that stated you could only park for 15 minutes for unloading and loading and you could not leave the vehicle unattended. We were unloading a very heavy item of furniture (which was in 2 pieces) that required two of us to lift it, and we live on the 17th floor with very tiny unreliable lifts, so no way on this planet could we have either done it ourselves or done it in any less time than that.

    My other frustration comes from the fact that people move in and out of that building every day, and removal vans can park there no problem. So how is that different?! Our letting agency told us we could park there for loading and unloading and so we didn't even think to query it. Another resident also this morning said we could speak to security downstairs about a temp permit but again, I was not told this and had no awareness of this at all.

    Looking at the sign it says I will be charged £100 for each violation, so along with the car hire admin fee this will cost me £275. My partner isn't working, I was out of work for six months and just started a new job, and we have JUST moved house, so I am so worried about how to pay this...and strongly feel I shouldn't have to!!!

    Is there anything I can do while waiting for my notice from UKCPM? Or do I just appeal it when it comes using the guidelines you've provided others?

    Also are the car hire firm A) Allowed to deduct my money without pre-approval and B) Required to refund my admin fee if I successfully appeal my fine?

    Thank you in advance!

    One v upset, angry and worried girl
Page 3
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 13th Jun 19, 7:29 PM
    • 1,067 Posts
    • 2,150 Thanks
    MistyZ
    Hmmm...as the hirer of the vehicle surely the who is the owner/who was driving question is indisputable? I can't see any reasonable defense in trying to say that the hirer and the owner/driver are distinguishable?
    Originally posted by anxiouscharlie
    I may have gone a bit word blind as not sure what you're saying ....

    But as Castle says, you are not the owner - as hirer you are the 'day to day keeper' of the vehicle. No driver can be the owner either.

    Seems a rather sloppy word to use in their T&Cs as 'owner' suggests Registered Keeper i.e. the lease company themselves.
    Last edited by MistyZ; 13-06-2019 at 7:32 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 19, 7:33 PM
    • 76,841 Posts
    • 90,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    on the paperwork CPM sent to the hire car company it states it is a "Penalty charge notice"
    Say what now?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 13th Jun 19, 7:37 PM
    • 7,945 Posts
    • 7,768 Thanks
    DoaM
    Say what now?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Read further down - already corrected.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 14th Jun 19, 10:12 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    Sorry for the confusion!

    I guess what I am trying to get at is that can you claim to be the hirer of the vehicle and not the driver? Unless that vehicle was stolen then surely that argument won't stand up?

    It is probably better to fight it along the "you have no jurisdiction here" lines, and the ridiculous number of conflicting signs in the carpark.

    The hire company received the notices on 4 June, so I'm anticipating the notices to arrive soon. Unless they have seen sense - probably a naive pipe dream!!
    Last edited by anxiouscharlie; 14-06-2019 at 1:57 PM.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Jun 19, 10:16 AM
    • 15,307 Posts
    • 15,961 Thanks
    The Deep
    I am trying to get at is that how can you claim to be the hirer of the vehicle not the driver?

    Easy, when you sign the contract you state how many people will drive the vehicle.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th Jun 19, 10:21 AM
    • 7,937 Posts
    • 10,823 Thanks
    waamo
    Sorry for the confusion! I am trying not to say anything that would implicate me.

    I guess what I am trying to get at is that how can you claim to be the hirer of the vehicle not the driver? Unless that vehicle was stolen then surely that argument won't stand up?

    Am I not better to fight it along the "you have no jurisdiction here" lines, and the ridiculous number of conflicting signs in the carpark?

    The hire company received my notices on 4 June, so I am anticipating my notices to arrive soon. Unless they have seen sense and realised I was a resident and entitled to be there - probably a naive pipe dream!!
    Originally posted by anxiouscharlie
    Just because you hire a vehicle it doesn't mean you are necessarily the driver. Anybody with the correct insurance can drive it.

    I've never seen many hire agreements that state driving is strictly limited to the hirer only. You can often select to have multiple drivers. The ppc have no way of seeing what you signed either.
    This space for hire.
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 14th Jun 19, 1:07 PM
    • 1,067 Posts
    • 2,150 Thanks
    MistyZ
    Just separate out the hirer and driver and leave it at that. And then perhaps delete any posts in this part of the discussion that identify the driver.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 18th Jun 19, 8:24 PM
    • 25,058 Posts
    • 32,035 Thanks
    Redx
    almost any car mechanic can legally drive the vehicle , like who work for garages or MOT stations, emergency workers like the Police , breakdown mechanics , the AA and RAC and GREEN FLAG employees etc , plus all the people like me who have FULLY COMP insurance and can drive any vehicle not belonging to them and not hired to them under any hire agreement

    this means tens of thousands of people could drive this vehicle , so the list is almost endless (think outside the box)
    Last edited by Redx; 13-07-2019 at 5:58 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 8th Jul 19, 9:18 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    So after more than a MONTH I received two “parking charge notices” from UKCPM in the post. They have the driver on CCTV so I don’t think disputing who was driving is wise. I think the best argument is the conflicting signage. I have contacted my local MP and will update her with the official wording in my letters. One thing I am clinging onto is that they state the car was in a “no waiting” zone, which is incorrect.
    Last edited by anxiouscharlie; 08-07-2019 at 9:26 PM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 8th Jul 19, 9:22 PM
    • 17,988 Posts
    • 21,957 Thanks
    KeithP
    So that have a picture of an unknown person driving the vehicle.

    How are you making the major leap from that to them knowing the name and address of the driver?

    They have no way of putting a name to that picture.

    Oh... and it is not CCTV.
    .
    • waamo
    • By waamo 8th Jul 19, 9:22 PM
    • 7,937 Posts
    • 10,823 Thanks
    waamo
    So after more than a MONTH I received two “parking charge notices” from UKCPM in the post. They have the driver on CCTV so I don’t think disputing who was driving is wise. I think the best argument is the conflicting signage. I have contacted my local MP and will update her with the official wording in my letters. One thing I am clinging onto is that they state I was in a “no waiting” zone, which is incorrect.
    Originally posted by anxiouscharlie
    Do they have facial recognition software? If not how do they know who it is in the pictures?
    This space for hire.
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 8th Jul 19, 9:28 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    I think the hirer and the driver of the vehicle are surely the same thing? Otherwise you are breaking the terms of your rental agreement. There is no one else that could have been driving that van.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 8th Jul 19, 9:30 PM
    • 7,937 Posts
    • 10,823 Thanks
    waamo
    I think the hirer and the driver of the vehicle are surely the same thing? Otherwise you are breaking the terms of your rental agreement. There is no one else that could have been driving that van.
    Originally posted by anxiouscharlie
    The ppc cannot see the rental agreement. Most rental agreements allow multiple drivers. I hire vehicles several times a year and have multiple drivers on every time.

    Let's play a quiz. Last vehicle I hired had 4 drivers named on the rental agreement. Who was driving it on day 2 of the 7 day hire period? I can show you a photo of them even. Who was it?
    Last edited by waamo; 08-07-2019 at 9:34 PM.
    This space for hire.
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 8th Jul 19, 9:44 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    This is the exact wording -

    We have issued Parking Charge Notice xxxx to a vehicle you have been named as hiring because it was parked in a manner whereby the driver became liable for a parking charge at xxx that we are authorised to manage on xxx.

    The terms and conditions of parking on this private land are clearly set out on the signage installed in the car park. By parking within this car park you are bound to these terms and conditions and are liable to pay a charge if you breach these terms and conditions. The period of parking to which this notice relates is the period that immediately preceded the time and date above.

    A discounted charge of £60 applies if this Parking Charge Notice is paid within 14 days of issue. If you choose not to pay this amount, the full value of £100 will be due.

    We have received your details following a transfer of liability naming you as the hirer of the vehicle at the time of the contravention. The reason we issued the PCN to the vehicle is as follows: No Stopping or Waiting (CCTV).
    • waamo
    • By waamo 8th Jul 19, 9:48 PM
    • 7,937 Posts
    • 10,823 Thanks
    waamo
    This is the exact wording -

    We have issued Parking Charge Notice xxxx to a vehicle you have been named as hiring because it was parked in a manner whereby the driver became liable for a parking charge at xxx that we are authorised to manage on xxx.

    The terms and conditions of parking on this private land are clearly set out on the signage installed in the car park. By parking within this car park you are bound to these terms and conditions and are liable to pay a charge if you breach these terms and conditions. The period of parking to which this notice relates is the period that immediately preceded the time and date above.

    A discounted charge of £60 applies if this Parking Charge Notice is paid within 14 days of issue. If you choose not to pay this amount, the full value of £100 will be due.

    We have received your details following a transfer of liability naming you as the hirer of the vehicle at the time of the contravention. The reason we issued the PCN to the vehicle is as follows: No Stopping or Waiting (CCTV).
    Originally posted by anxiouscharlie
    Ok they know who hired the vehicle. We know that. Is there a question in there?
    This space for hire.
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 8th Jul 19, 9:56 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    My rental agreement only had one driver named on it. I am slightly concerned going down this route will result in a failed appeal and enhanced charges. I don't want to go to court. I will contact my MP while looking at the advice already given on here and forming an appeal.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 8th Jul 19, 10:00 PM
    • 7,937 Posts
    • 10,823 Thanks
    waamo
    My rental agreement only had one driver named on it. I am slightly concerned going down this route will result in a failed appeal and enhanced charges. I don't want to go to court. I will contact my MP while looking at the advice already given on here and forming an appeal.
    Originally posted by anxiouscharlie
    Given it's unlawful for the hire company to disclose the hire agreement with the ppc how are they going to know if there was one driver named or one hundred?

    Not only that how do they know an authorised person such as a mechanic wasn't driving it?

    You seem to think they have an operation MI5 would be envious of.
    This space for hire.
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 13th Jul 19, 5:51 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    I'm compiling my "refusal to pay" letter using the sticky thread, however, I'm now confused as to whether to reply online or via post. The online service says if you have pictures etc to upload then send via post, but the sticky thread says to reply online so they don't have an excuse to say they didn't receive your letter.

    Also on the sticky post it refers to there being a question if this is a notice to registered keeper and that CPM only has a certain number of days to contact me AFTER receiving my details from the hire firm? The alleged infringement was about 6 weeks ago, and I know my details were passed to them by the hire firm over a month ago...so is there a time limit for them to issue this notice to me?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 13th Jul 19, 6:01 PM
    • 25,058 Posts
    • 32,035 Thanks
    Redx
    do both ; online and post if you wish, its your choice to make, not ours

    any letter sent should also be done with a free certificate of posting from the P O Counter

    yes there is a timeframe, its listed in the hire vehicle section of POFA , please read it (also read all posts by member edna basher on here as well, plenty of good info and explanations about this by him)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 13th Jul 19, 6:15 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    It says they have 21 days to send me details along with my PCN, but I received nothing until roughly 24 days (well, the PCN was dated 3 July but I actually didn't receive it until the 9 July!) after the car hire company had invoiced me for the admin fee. I guess I have no way of knowing when the car hire company passed over my details?
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