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  • FIRST POST
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 11th Jun 19, 4:40 PM
    • 45Posts
    • 18Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    Parking charge and admin fee from hire company
    • #1
    • 11th Jun 19, 4:40 PM
    Parking charge and admin fee from hire company 11th Jun 19 at 4:40 PM
    Hi everyone, I have read through the sticky post and the FAQs but I am still a little bit worried and confused. Two things:
    1) This morning I received an email from a van hire firm saying they were charging me TWO admin fees for two separate car parking charges in the same weekend. Friday for parking outside my building to load the van and Monday for unloading it (we were picking up some items we had in storage). They informed me that they had my credit card details on file from the rental agreement and they would automatically deduct the 70 (2 x 35). Are they allowed to do this!?
    2) I have not yet received my actual notice from UK Carpark Management Ltd as to the exact nature of the violation, the car hire company said they will be re-issuing me the fine directly. If I only have a certain amount of time to appeal or to pay a reduced fine, will this delay affect that?

    After looking around the area I parked this morning I did find a sign that stated you could only park for 15 minutes for unloading and loading and you could not leave the vehicle unattended. We were unloading a very heavy item of furniture (which was in 2 pieces) that required two of us to lift it, and we live on the 17th floor with very tiny unreliable lifts, so no way on this planet could we have either done it ourselves or done it in any less time than that.

    My other frustration comes from the fact that people move in and out of that building every day, and removal vans can park there no problem. So how is that different?! Our letting agency told us we could park there for loading and unloading and so we didn't even think to query it. Another resident also this morning said we could speak to security downstairs about a temp permit but again, I was not told this and had no awareness of this at all.

    Looking at the sign it says I will be charged 100 for each violation, so along with the car hire admin fee this will cost me 275. My partner isn't working, I was out of work for six months and just started a new job, and we have JUST moved house, so I am so worried about how to pay this...and strongly feel I shouldn't have to!!!

    Is there anything I can do while waiting for my notice from UKCPM? Or do I just appeal it when it comes using the guidelines you've provided others?

    Also are the car hire firm A) Allowed to deduct my money without pre-approval and B) Required to refund my admin fee if I successfully appeal my fine?

    Thank you in advance!

    One v upset, angry and worried girl
Page 2
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 12th Jun 19, 3:41 PM
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    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    I did wonder if the loading/unloading stopping/no stopping factor could come into play as they are calling it a "parking charge notice".

    One more thing. The CCTV shows the time of arrival and the time of departure, but it does not show any time in between - the unloading and loading of the van, for instance. And the wording of the notice states:

    "The period of parking to which this notice relates is the period that immediately preceded the incident time and date above." The incident time is the arrival time...at which point no violation had occurred!!
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 12th Jun 19, 3:44 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    The other thing I have just noticed is that I have 14 days to pay a reduced fine if I do pay it...but the date stamp on the car hire copy says 4 June. Why has it taken a week to get to me?! And will I then have 14 days from the date I receive my official copy?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 12th Jun 19, 4:44 PM
    • 15,307 Posts
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    The Deep
    I am yet (as of xxx 2019) to receive an official notice from the UK Car Park Management company concerning the alleged offences,

    It is not an offence, it is an invoice for compensation for the damage they allege they suffered when allegedly you breached an alleged contract.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 19, 12:53 AM
    • 76,841 Posts
    • 90,197 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    And will I then have 14 days from the date I receive my official copy?
    Who cares? It's UKCPM. No-one in their right mind pays that bunch money.

    You won't be PAYING it, just responding to confirm you are the lessee hirer (but not who was driving) and then winning in court in the end.

    Did you do this, as advised by The Slithy Tove?
    Oh, and go to your card issuer and request a charge-back on what the rental company have taken.
    You need to do that too. No waiting to see what the hire firm say (we know).

    Strike while the iron is hot and do a chargeback to show the hire firm your complaint is serious and that the payment is fully disputed and against their t&cs.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 13th Jun 19, 7:08 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    I will call the credit card firm this morning. I wanted to make sure they had taken the money first!
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 13th Jun 19, 11:35 AM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    Hi all..mini update....although nothing "official" yet from UKCPM I did receive a wordy T&C-filled reply from the hire car company today basically saying they were within their rights to claim admin fees for penalty notices. BUT they finished it by saying as a "goodwill gesture" they are giving me a 50% discount, so essentially only charging me for the admin fees for one notice instead of two. They also said on successful appeal with UKCPM they would refund the other 50%. Still annoyed they were going to take money from my credit card without the option, but thank you so much for your help everyone with the wording of the complaint to them.

    I will be in touch when I get my notices. My friend who is a lawyer seems to think I have no chance whatsoever given that the parking signs are explicit but I won't go down without a fight.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 13th Jun 19, 11:44 AM
    • 12,575 Posts
    • 17,541 Thanks
    beamerguy
    But you never received a penalty notice which the terms refer to

    You received a commercial invoice. Car Hire companies have yet to get to grips with this

    Your lawyer friend ...... is not up to speed regarding this scam industry
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 13th Jun 19, 11:47 AM
    • 40,678 Posts
    • 90,304 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    Hi all..mini update....although nothing "official" yet from UKCPM I did receive a wordy T&C-filled reply from the hire car company today basically saying they were within their rights to claim admin fees for penalty notices. BUT they finished it by saying as a "goodwill gesture" they are giving me a 50% discount, so essentially only charging me for the admin fees for one notice instead of two. They also said on successful appeal with UKCPM they would refund the other 50%. Still annoyed they were going to take money from my credit card without the option, but thank you so much for your help everyone with the wording of the complaint to them.

    I will be in touch when I get my notices. My friend who is a lawyer seems to think I have no chance whatsoever given that the parking signs are explicit but I won't go down without a fight.
    Originally posted by anxiouscharlie
    Your lawyer friend is obviously not as learned as he/she thinks they are. He/she should come here and learn about this unregulated scam.

    Did you put the charge in dispute with your card provider as suggested?

    Have you complained to your MP yet?
    Last edited by Fruitcake; 14-07-2019 at 9:02 AM.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 13th Jun 19, 11:48 AM
    • 7,945 Posts
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    DoaM
    My friend who is a lawyer seems to think I have no chance whatsoever given that the parking signs are explicit but I won't go down without a fight.
    Originally posted by anxiouscharlie
    It seems like your lawyer friend is grossly misinformed. Being a lawyer doesn't make them right - otherwise why would forum-assisted court claims be won ~99% of the time by the motorist, even though it's a legal company representing the PPC?
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 13th Jun 19, 11:59 AM
    • 4,893 Posts
    • 7,157 Thanks
    Half_way
    The other thing I have just noticed is that I have 14 days to pay a reduced fine if I do pay it...but the date stamp on the car hire copy says 4 June. Why has it taken a week to get to me?! And will I then have 14 days from the date I receive my official copy?
    Originally posted by anxiouscharlie
    Please please please stop calling it a fine, it is not.
    Its Vital that you get this right, especially when dealing with a hire/lease company, otherwise you may as well just urinate your money down the drain.
    The reduced/early discount is no more than a pressure tactic.
    Last edited by Half_way; 13-06-2019 at 12:00 PM. Reason: Over zealous swear filter
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 13th Jun 19, 11:59 AM
    • 5,720 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    Tell your car hire that, as thi swas NOT a penalty notice, but a mere private invoice, they had NO rights.
    Refudn the full amount and issue an apology for their gross error in failing to understand teh difference, else you will submit a chargeback AND complaint as you have been unlawfully deprived of your money - theft, in other words.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Jun 19, 12:00 PM
    • 15,307 Posts
    • 15,961 Thanks
    The Deep
    saying they were within their rights to claim admin fees for penalty notices.

    They may well be but these are not penalty notices. How many times fdo we have to say it, these are invoices.

    Tell your lawyer friend that signs are only a small part of the equation, the PCN has to be considered under several more heads.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 13th Jun 19, 1:40 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    Hi all thank you for your learned responses as always, do not worry I have not referred to it as a fine at any point in any other communication.

    I have complained to my MP today and I have checked my credit card account and nothing has been taken yet, but I will submit a chargeback when I do. Unfortunately, although I totally get what you are all saying regarding the invoice/notice discrepancy, and I will be fighting it with CMPUK when I get my official copies, on the paperwork CPM sent to the hire car company it states it is a "Penalty charge notice" - under the T&Cs issued to me when hiring the van, it states they can issue admin fines concerning "Penalty notices". Regardless of what we all think it really is (an invoice), I think actually the hire company are just following protocol here? I will write back to them with what you guys have suggested about theft, but have a feeling this will negate any goodwill on their part. I have already had an admin fee reduced from 70 to 35 and a written promise that the whole lot will be refunded in the case of a successful appeal.

    I am a writer and editor and even I am a little bamboozled by all this. Surrounded by people telling me to just pay the reduced amount so I am really confused!

    On returning home just now, there are no less than three vehicles parked outside my building! One delivery truck, one private vehicle and a post van. There are also THREE separate notices in the same area.

    One that says "No unauthorised parking" - with no firm name/logo/contact details.
    One that says "Restricted vehicle access, emergency, delivery and servicing vehicles. Resident pick-up and drop-off" - again no name, logo, contact details or any time restrictions at all.
    And another that is the basis of my "invoice" by CPM - saying "15 minutes maximum stay. Actively loading and unloading only" - with CPM details plastered all over it.

    I am getting angrier and angrier by the day that they DARE to issue me with this when other people are in flagrant breach of this on a daily basis, AND they have three signs all contradicting each other!!
    Last edited by anxiouscharlie; 13-06-2019 at 2:39 PM.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 13th Jun 19, 1:47 PM
    • 40,482 Posts
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    Quentin
    Are your initials **?

    If so edit the link out of the above post
    Last edited by Quentin; 13-06-2019 at 2:50 PM.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Jun 19, 1:58 PM
    • 15,307 Posts
    • 15,961 Thanks
    The Deep
    when I get my official copies, on the paperwork CPM sent to the hire car company it states it is a "Penalty charge notice" -

    Are you sure that CPM have used the word "Penalty"?

    If so they are in breach of their ATA's Code of Practice, (paragraph 14, misrepresentation of authority), and it would be an immediate cancellation of the ticket at POPLA.

    https://www.britishparking.co.uk/write/BPA_AOS_CODE_OF_PRACTICE_CURRENT.pdf
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 13th Jun 19, 2:41 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    Parking Charge Notice, sorry. OK I get what you are saying, it is very important to use the correct terminology.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 13th Jun 19, 3:24 PM
    • 15,307 Posts
    • 15,961 Thanks
    The Deep
    Indeed, especially in cases such as this.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 13th Jun 19, 3:56 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    The hire car T&Cs do state a "Parking Charge Notice" unfortunately

    STATEMENT OF LIABILITY: I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT FOR THE PERIOD OF THE RENTAL I SHALL BE LIABLE AS THE OWNER OF THE VEHICLE FOR ANY FIXED PENALTY OFFENCE COMMITTED WITH RESPECT TO THE VEHICLE OR ANY PENALTY OR PARKING CHARGE NOTICE, ANY EXCESS CHARGE OR PENALTY CHARGE FOR PARKING OR BUS LANE CONTRAVENTIONS WHICH MAY BE INCURRED AND ANY CHARGES AND PENALTY CHARGES INCURRED UNDER A ROAD USER CHARGING SCHEME.

    BY SIGNING BELOW I AGREE TO THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS AND AUTHORISE YOU TO OBTAIN PAYMENT OF ALL AMOUNTS DUE OR WHICH BECOME DUE UNDER THIS RENTAL AGREEMENT (PARAGRAPH 6 T&Cs) BY DEBITING THE CREDIT OR DEBIT CARD PRESENTED FOR WHICH I MAY HAVE PAID TO YOU. I ALSO CONFIRM (AND CONFIRM ON BEHALF OF ANY ADDITIONAL DRIVERS) THE CONSENTS PROVIDED IN RELATION TO THE USE OF PERSONAL DATA DESCRIBED IN PARAGRAPH 10 OF THIS RENTAL AGREEMENT.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 13th Jun 19, 4:19 PM
    • 2,367 Posts
    • 3,255 Thanks
    Castle
    The hire car T&Cs do state a "Parking Charge Notice" unfortunately

    STATEMENT OF LIABILITY: I ACKNOWLEDGE THAT FOR THE PERIOD OF THE RENTAL I SHALL BE LIABLE AS THE OWNER OF THE VEHICLE FOR ANY FIXED PENALTY OFFENCE COMMITTED WITH RESPECT TO THE VEHICLE OR ANY PENALTY OR PARKING CHARGE NOTICE, ANY EXCESS CHARGE OR PENALTY CHARGE FOR PARKING OR BUS LANE CONTRAVENTIONS WHICH MAY BE INCURRED AND ANY CHARGES AND PENALTY CHARGES INCURRED UNDER A ROAD USER CHARGING SCHEME.
    Originally posted by anxiouscharlie
    But you're not the OWNER!
    • anxiouscharlie
    • By anxiouscharlie 13th Jun 19, 4:23 PM
    • 45 Posts
    • 18 Thanks
    anxiouscharlie
    Hmmm...as the hirer of the vehicle surely the who is the owner/who was driving question is indisputable? I can't see any reasonable defense in trying to say that the hirer and the owner/driver are distinguishable?
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