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  • FIRST POST
    • ToxicWomble
    • By ToxicWomble 10th Jun 19, 11:38 AM
    • 136Posts
    • 215Thanks
    ToxicWomble
    Out of interest
    • #1
    • 10th Jun 19, 11:38 AM
    Out of interest 10th Jun 19 at 11:38 AM
    Reading through this board, I caught myself wondering how many of these PCNs would be enforceable if the companies involved actually played by the rules/law/legislation etc

    If it was a reasonable percentage then why donít they ?

    Only reason I can think of is that enough people just pay up that the costs of playing a ďfair gameĒ isnít yet financially viable to them.
Page 2
    • Snakes Belly
    • By Snakes Belly 14th Jun 19, 12:11 PM
    • 805 Posts
    • 1,179 Thanks
    Snakes Belly
    It is very easy to blame shoppers for not reading the signs, but when the signs, e.g. those of Parking Eye, contain over 300 words of very small print on an eight pole, it is to be expected.

    In such cases, imo. more defences should concentrate on the unfair terms and conditions provisions of the Consumer Rights Act, which is very rarely mentioned in the appeals/defences we see.
    Originally posted by The Deep
    You also have to question why shoppers are deserting the high street. It's not just about online shopping. There have always been other shopping platforms before Internet shopping.

    Nolite te bast--des carborundorum.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 14th Jun 19, 12:21 PM
    • 3,436 Posts
    • 5,317 Thanks
    NeilCr
    You also have to question why shoppers are deserting the high street. It's not just about online shopping. There have always been other shopping platforms before Internet shopping.
    Originally posted by Snakes Belly
    Round here it's because of the introduction (quite a few years back) of an out of town shopping centre/complex. Big shops, supermarkets, multiplex cinema, restaurants, casino. Car parks there are always full - and big. I've lost track of my car at least once there!

    So our town has a Waitrose (thankfully) medium size Asda and Aldi, a few normal high street shops (Boots, Smiths), estate agents and lots of charity shops. Some good restaurants, fortunately!

    Personally, I am not a great believer in PPCs (ahem) driving people away from supermarkets and high streets. I know it is possible to find individual instances but, it's not something that you see mentioned much - if at all - for falls in sales. I tend to think supermarkets are pretty cute and if that was happening they'd do something about it
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 14th Jun 19, 12:54 PM
    • 3,265 Posts
    • 4,148 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    ToxicWomble




    most of the 'loophole' defences are there because PPC's will not ... in all most all cases consider the first appeal. ...... ever ....



    Especially mitigating circumstances ....


    POPLA are the same ... only legal points ..... never mitigating facts ..


    this is why the newbies thread states ' the details of your case are irrelevant'



    so under the current climate loopholes are the only possible course of action with a PPC / POPLA .


    landlord / owner / CEO .... differs slightly.



    this may change after the new rules are confirmed .... I await with bated breath




    Oh and please come back for some loophole defence when you finally get caught ........




    Ralph
    • Snakes Belly
    • By Snakes Belly 14th Jun 19, 1:07 PM
    • 805 Posts
    • 1,179 Thanks
    Snakes Belly

    Personally, I am not a great believer in PPCs (ahem) driving people away from supermarkets and high streets. I know it is possible to find individual instances but, it's not something that you see mentioned much - if at all - for falls in sales. I tend to think supermarkets are pretty cute and if that was happening they'd do something about it
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    There is evidence that footfall is down in the West Midlands. Some of the larger stores have now closed. This is thought to be partly down to the costs of parking.

    Nolite te bast--des carborundorum.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 14th Jun 19, 2:14 PM
    • 3,966 Posts
    • 6,312 Thanks
    fisherjim
    It's all very well wanting "loopholes" closing but how about the PPC's that don't even use loopholes in their own COP to entrap, or target victims, they just do as they please.


    The general public believe that the first appeal is to state the fact as they happened, eg I have a blue badge but it slipped off the dashboard, and that POPLA then mediates in all fairness when that appeal is rejected.


    The reality is that PPC's do not play fair or give any leeway (as the scheme is supposed to allow) because they are engrossed with greed.


    And no where does the scheme tell people that POPLA does not consider the fairness of the rejection only the procedure.


    As for the IPC IAS every regular on here knows it's a stitch up from start to finish, but Joe Public once again thinks parking attendants are nice old pensioners in white coats earning a little to supplement their pension by helping to manage car parks.


    It's all a big game biased one way.
    • Snakes Belly
    • By Snakes Belly 14th Jun 19, 3:03 PM
    • 805 Posts
    • 1,179 Thanks
    Snakes Belly
    It's all very well wanting "loopholes" closing but how about the PPC's that don't even use loopholes in their own COP to entrap, or target victims, they just do as they please.


    The general public believe that the first appeal is to state the fact as they happened, eg I have a blue badge but it slipped off the dashboard, and that POPLA then mediates in all fairness when that appeal is rejected.


    The reality is that PPC's do not play fair or give any leeway (as the scheme is supposed to allow) because they are engrossed with greed.


    And no where does the scheme tell people that POPLA does not consider the fairness of the rejection only the procedure.


    As for the IPC IAS every regular on here knows it's a stitch up from start to finish, but Joe Public once again thinks parking attendants are nice old pensioners in white coats earning a little to supplement their pension by helping to manage car parks.


    It's all a big game biased one way.
    Originally posted by fisherjim
    Very true. One of the big misconceptions that I made was that I thought the CoP's actually meant something. They are just platitudes and meaningless in court.

    There are some people that are !!!!less (see below) but the majority are people who have made the most minor transgression. When a disabled badge slips of the dashboard as the disabled person gets out of the car surely this sort of thing should just be cancelled. The disability is still there.

    https://www.expressandstar.com/news/local-hubs/wolverhampton/2019/05/22/two-wolverhampton-motorists-rack-up-12000-parking-fines/

    Nolite te bast--des carborundorum.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 14th Jun 19, 3:56 PM
    • 3,436 Posts
    • 5,317 Thanks
    NeilCr
    There is evidence that footfall is down in the West Midlands. Some of the larger stores have now closed. This is thought to be partly down to the costs of parking.
    Originally posted by Snakes Belly
    Have you any links?

    Genuinely interested.

    In terms of high streets (certainly ours) the parking issues are more about the LA. They've started allowing free parking at weekends in some council owned car parks to see if that gets more folks back in town!
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th Jun 19, 4:04 PM
    • 7,887 Posts
    • 10,758 Thanks
    waamo
    Have you any links?

    Genuinely interested.

    In terms of high streets (certainly ours) the parking issues are more about the LA. They've started allowing free parking at weekends in some council owned car parks to see if that gets more folks back in town!
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    Here is a report commissioned for the Welsh Assembly https://gweddill.gov.wales/docs/caecd/research/2015/150610-assessing-impact-car-parking-charges-town-centre-footfall-en.pdf

    It's 51 pages long though. It concluded parking charges tend to influence how long people stay and how much they spend in an area.
    This space for hire.
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 14th Jun 19, 4:21 PM
    • 3,436 Posts
    • 5,317 Thanks
    NeilCr
    Here is a report commissioned for the Welsh Assembly https://gweddill.gov.wales/docs/caecd/research/2015/150610-assessing-impact-car-parking-charges-town-centre-footfall-en.pdf

    It's 51 pages long though. It concluded parking charges tend to influence how long people stay and how much they spend in an area.
    Originally posted by waamo
    Thank you.



    Very interesting.

    But that does seem to be about LA parking rather than PPCs in supermarket car parks. I fully accept that LA parking charges may well affect footfall in town centres..

    My fault, I think, as I wasn't clear, but as this forum is primarily about private parking charges I was more looking for evidence supporting the view that PPCs in supermarket etc car parks affect their business. I tend to think that, if that was the case, the supermarkets would do something about it.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 14th Jun 19, 4:45 PM
    • 12,540 Posts
    • 17,474 Thanks
    beamerguy
    I was more looking for evidence supporting the view that PPCs in supermarket etc car parks affect their business. I tend to think that, if that was the case, the supermarkets would do something about it.

    I very much doubt that supermarkets have a clue. They are more interested in their competition ?
    Last edited by beamerguy; 14-06-2019 at 4:58 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • NeilCr
    • By NeilCr 14th Jun 19, 5:00 PM
    • 3,436 Posts
    • 5,317 Thanks
    NeilCr
    I was more looking for evidence supporting the view that PPCs in supermarket etc car parks affect their business. I tend to think that, if that was the case, the supermarkets would do something about it.

    I very much doubt that supermarkets have a clue. They are more interested in their competition ?
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    I'd have thought they were interested in profits too?

    This article seems to me to sum up some of the main reasons supermarkets are beginning to struggle - although Aldi and Lidl are beginning to buck the trend.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/11585366/The-four-reasons-why-supermarkets-are-losing-money.html
    Last edited by NeilCr; 14-06-2019 at 5:10 PM.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 14th Jun 19, 5:20 PM
    • 12,540 Posts
    • 17,474 Thanks
    beamerguy
    I'd have thought they were interested in profits too?

    This article seems to me to sum up some of the main reasons supermarkets are beginning to struggle - although Aldi and Asda are beginning to buck the trend.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/11585366/The-four-reasons-why-supermarkets-are-losing-money.html
    Originally posted by NeilCr
    Even if they knew how much PPC's lose for them, they would not broadcast it. The interesting fact in that article is that the local small stores are topping the charts, even though they are more expensive.
    Maybe shoppers are prepared to pay a few pence more than get a £100 parking ticket.

    All supermarkets will be tied to a contract anyway

    The singing Sainsbury's CEO should be singing this
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUOtCLOXgm8
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th Jun 19, 6:47 PM
    • 7,887 Posts
    • 10,758 Thanks
    waamo

    All supermarkets will be tied to a contract anyway
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    As both Somerfield and the Coop found out to their cost when they tried to dump the ppcs they had engaged.
    This space for hire.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 14th Jun 19, 6:52 PM
    • 12,540 Posts
    • 17,474 Thanks
    beamerguy
    As both Somerfield and the Coop found out to their cost when they tried to dump the ppcs they had engaged.
    Originally posted by waamo
    Yes they did Waamo, the cost of breaking a contract is severe

    The supermarkets have been scammed as much as the motorist
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Woppyman72
    • By Woppyman72 14th Jun 19, 7:23 PM
    • 63 Posts
    • 171 Thanks
    Woppyman72
    I can see both sides of this. As a landowner would I want someone parking on my drive with impunity so I couldn’t park my car there? No.

    But also I have had many PCN’s over the years, and when it’s genuinely been me being very careless I have paid.

    These I haven’t:

    - Not even on the land where car parking restrictions are in force. PPC run by 2 convicted criminals.
    - My car parked on the white line and PPC claim should be ‘within’ white line
    - Car Parked at 5am when car park covered in snow. That day everyone in the car park got a ticket as we couldn’t see the white lines!
    - Situations where I am slightly parked out of an end bay, not causing an obstruction but trying to avoid the inevitable dings from careless drivers swinging doors into my car..
    - 7 minute stay whilst deciding whether to park or not.

    I’m with the deep, if the PPCs had clear signage and did not penalise for trivial issues and did not load exorbitant charges on top, then I’d be more open minded.

    Indigo/Saba grossed £77M in 2017. That’s a pretty big profit however you look at it.
    Last edited by Woppyman72; 14-06-2019 at 7:26 PM.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 15th Jun 19, 10:37 AM
    • 3,265 Posts
    • 4,148 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    MistyZ posted this a short while ago


    https://www.ncp.co.uk/download/1965.6/parking-behaviour-and-attitude-study/?utm_source=display&utm_medium=adroll&utm_campaign =ncpsolutions




    Ralph
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 15th Jun 19, 3:03 PM
    • 3,966 Posts
    • 6,312 Thanks
    fisherjim
    Just a nice piece of contrived propaganda by NCP, you can say anything with statistics especially if you ask questions your way.


    "61% of motorists agree there should be PCN's for those that purposefully break the rules when it comes to parking"


    But what about those that haven't purposefully broke the rules but were penalised anyway.


    "Technology is making the car park experience frictionless for customers"


    Their very short totally biased conclusion: NCP are your most considerate enforcers of car park management, which we know is utter tripe they are no better than the rest.
    Last edited by fisherjim; 15-06-2019 at 3:06 PM.
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 15th Jun 19, 9:32 PM
    • 1,050 Posts
    • 2,106 Thanks
    MistyZ
    But also I have had many PCN’s over the years, and when it’s genuinely been me being very careless I have paid.
    .
    Originally posted by Woppyman72
    Fair play to you. However I'm not sure what good paying PPCs actually does! They are .... corrupt(?), is that too strong a word?

    With car numbers increasing year on year, there has to be some effective disincentive to selfish, inconsiderate parking. With that I agree. But when we enrich scammers that doesn't feel like making amends.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th Jun 19, 9:41 PM
    • 25,020 Posts
    • 31,952 Thanks
    Redx
    there is a notorious car park for retail shops on PEEL HOLDINGS land in Stockport , not far from me

    I never, repeat NEVER park there , meaning none of those shops ever get my custom , not one

    this is mainly because for one they should not be charging for me to park in order to look around the shops who pay PEEL rent money , the parking should be free for patrons of those shops

    plus due to the notoriety and anpr errors and signage failures at that car park (think Martin Cutts etc) and a lack of considerate appeal systems (Excel are an IPC member) there is little to be done once a pcn has been issued by Excel

    I warned ASDA head office what would happen if my car was ticketed on their local site and they took my VRM and made it exempt (added to their whitelist) on all their car parks in the UK , never mind my local one

    had they ticketed me , they would have lost thousands of pounds of trade per annum

    if ECP try it at my local Morrissons , Morrissons will also feel my wrath and could suffer a loss in trade too
    Last edited by Redx; 15-06-2019 at 9:45 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Snakes Belly
    • By Snakes Belly 16th Jun 19, 12:53 AM
    • 805 Posts
    • 1,179 Thanks
    Snakes Belly
    https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2018/12/03/councils-rake-in-15m-in-parking-charges-in-just-one-year/

    The article above relates to council car parks but does mention the impact that the overall cost of parking is having on the high street. Wolverhampton has lost BHS, is losing Debenhams (not all that old). Beatties (now House of Fraser) is hanging by a thread. Walsall has lost Marks and Spencer and BHS. There are very few stalls in the markets in some of the smaller towns.

    There is no incentive now to go into a town when you can buy the same online and avoid parking charges and possibly a parking ticket.

    Nolite te bast--des carborundorum.
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