Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@. Skimlinks & other affiliated links are turned on

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • Jonah01
    • By Jonah01 23rd May 19, 9:12 AM
    • 228Posts
    • 60Thanks
    Jonah01
    Woodford Concerns
    • #1
    • 23rd May 19, 9:12 AM
    Woodford Concerns 23rd May 19 at 9:12 AM
    Hi guys,

    Like most people invested in the Woodford Equity income it is very depressing and worrying.

    I have around 50k invested and have obviously lost on this due to his poor performance recently.

    I don't need access to the money so am happy to hold and wait until Brexit is done and for the UK to pick up.


    My concern and my main question to the people in the know here is can funds completely tank. By this I mean is it possibly that an investor could lose all of the money they have invested in fund? Can the fund go bust?

    I am thinking of getting out due to this concern.

    Thanks
Page 31
    • Crabby
    • By Crabby 14th Jun 19, 8:04 AM
    • 786 Posts
    • 227 Thanks
    Crabby
    Damn, my copy has been recycled,(without reading), it will probably be a collectors item a few years.
    Winner winner, Chicken dinner.
    • Voyager2002
    • By Voyager2002 14th Jun 19, 8:13 AM
    • 13,306 Posts
    • 9,167 Thanks
    Voyager2002
    Some are across many kinds of business (insurance brokers, digital publishers, allsorts), rather than just speculative technological startups. 3i might be one to look at for people particularly interested in that area, and with staff who might know more than Woodford, but it's been doing so well the shares are at quite a premium at the moment. (This isn't investment advice.)
    Originally posted by redux

    An interesting comment. I bought 3i some time ago, thinking of it as essentially an infrastructure trust (I regard wi-fi systems and mobile telephone as infrastructure rather than 'speculative technological startups). Has it changed direction since then?
    • Brian65
    • By Brian65 14th Jun 19, 8:13 AM
    • 140 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    Brian65
    It is pure madness that HL continue to send out this marketing (junk mail) via post.
    Originally posted by Jonbvn
    The fact HL have made so much money suggests otherwise.
    If that doesn't work, what does?
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 14th Jun 19, 9:00 AM
    • 9,341 Posts
    • 16,995 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    An interesting comment. I bought 3i some time ago, thinking of it as essentially an infrastructure trust (I regard wi-fi systems and mobile telephone as infrastructure rather than 'speculative technological startups). Has it changed direction since then?
    Originally posted by Voyager2002
    3i is a private equity investment company which runs a number of investment funds for institutional investors and holds some investments itself. You can invest in it on the stock exchange. It also manages 3i Infrastructure plc which is the company of which you're probably thinking.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 14th Jun 19, 9:27 AM
    • 15,905 Posts
    • 19,124 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    IMHO there are some interesting businesses which aren't obvious duds, even if some are very pre-revenue or even pre-product .

    Yes I know you have a bee in your bonnet about Industrial Heat for example, but that doesn't mean the emperor is wearing no clothes.
    Originally posted by bowlhead99
    My position is that IH is a clear pointer to the quality of the research into the others, hence my scepticism of them. There may be some gems there but Is there a Theranos or three in there as well? Hard to know from the outside.
    At least with listed companies there's an independent arbiter for the value rather than Link with a track record of catastrophic / inept valuations ,plus it's easier to sell to the greater fool even if they really are duds.
    If you take a company in this area that has a track record of this, 3i for example, their valuations I'd be happy with. WPCT was clearly a newbie at this and has come short on multiple counts. I understand the concept of taking a flyer but this is too akin to going for the unfancied runner in the 330 at Kempton for me. Good luck to you though.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • bowlhead99
    • By bowlhead99 14th Jun 19, 9:42 AM
    • 9,341 Posts
    • 16,995 Thanks
    bowlhead99
    If you take a company in this area that has a track record of this, 3i for example, their valuations I'd be happy with. WPCT was clearly a newbie at this and has come short on multiple counts. I understand the concept of taking a flyer but this is too akin to going for the unfancied runner in the 330 at Kempton for me. Good luck to you though.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Point taken but 3i pretty much gave up doing early stage investments in startups over a decade ago. The venture side of their business shrunk after losing a billion or more in the 2000 tech bubble crash.

    They know what they are doing in mid market buyouts, growth capital and infrastructure though. You might be happy with those values, but you can't buy 3i in the market at 32% discount to last reported NAV
    • redux
    • By redux 14th Jun 19, 10:24 AM
    • 19,780 Posts
    • 27,525 Thanks
    redux
    An interesting comment. I bought 3i some time ago, thinking of it as essentially an infrastructure trust (I regard wi-fi systems and mobile telephone as infrastructure rather than 'speculative technological startups). Has it changed direction since then?
    Originally posted by Voyager2002
    I didn't mean to imply that speculative startups is what it does, more than it has had some technological focus (though it now also has what we might deem more mainstream stuff like reinsurance and a ferry company).

    Woodford seems to be trying to be in even earlier, seeding research projects even before they all succeed, get going a bit and then need capital to expand, which might be a more typical time for the venture capital to come in.
    • dividendhero
    • By dividendhero 14th Jun 19, 10:26 AM
    • 2,137 Posts
    • 3,892 Thanks
    dividendhero
    My position is that IH is a clear pointer to the quality of the research into the others, hence my scepticism of them. .
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Agree 100%, while Woodford himself might not know the difference between fusion & fission, never mind the intracies of binding energy and the coulomb barrier - there are Science PhD's on the board of Woodford and it's quite easy to hire in an adviser from a University. Even a lecturer in physics would spot IH's science as duff
    • newatc
    • By newatc 14th Jun 19, 10:44 AM
    • 471 Posts
    • 589 Thanks
    newatc
    Yes shameful. Hargreaves have sold out of a fund they relentlessly pushed on the poverty 50 list to small investors - further compounding losses for the direct small investor.


    But I'm not surprised. The game plan now is to expunge Woodford from the HL Corporate memory. Soon he will be the "Fund Manager Whose Name Cannot be Mentioned" in HL Head Office.



    Any documents appertaining to the Fund-Manager-Whose-Name-Cannot-be-Mentioned will be kept in the restricted section of the HL archives.


    But HL rehabilitation into civilised Society will be a long and difficult process, after this latest demonstration of their behaviours -almost simultaneously selling to clients and getting out before themselves before their direct clients.
    Originally posted by arnoldy
    In a year's time they will showing stats on how the then "current" Wealth 50 has done over the last 5 years without drawing attention to then forgotten Woodford fund losses.
    • Uxb1
    • By Uxb1 14th Jun 19, 10:48 AM
    • 275 Posts
    • 389 Thanks
    Uxb1
    Article from DT claiming that upon re-opening (sometime) investors in the fund wanting to withdraw would be subject to a haircut (though not that they call it that naturally...).
    All to dissuade them from selling of course
    Shades of the Equitable Life fiasco come to mind where the haircut was applied in reverse to encourage those to sell and those that remained came off worse as the haircut got deeper each time.
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/funds/trapped-woodford-investors-face-punishing-charges-sell/
    • Perhaps
    • By Perhaps 14th Jun 19, 11:37 AM
    • 22 Posts
    • 9 Thanks
    Perhaps
    It is pure madness that HL continue to send out this marketing (junk mail) via post. Does anyone even read it? However, our rabbits would like to thank HL for keeping them warm
    Originally posted by Jonbvn
    It's a marketing channel. HL's customers are often beginner investors, those who keep meaning to start investing but never quite getting round to it. Post is a good way to get in front of people who wouldn't otherwise pay attention (either those who don't do lots of electronic communication, or a way to get the attention of those who are already overloaded by electronic media). If you already know you want an investment platform and what you want it for, you aren't HL's target market.

    Post isn't cheap, but then neither are HL.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 14th Jun 19, 12:34 PM
    • 15,905 Posts
    • 19,124 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Agree 100%, while Woodford himself might not know the difference between fusion & fission, never mind the intracies of binding energy and the coulomb barrier - there are Science PhD's on the board of Woodford and it's quite easy to hire in an adviser from a University. Even a lecturer in physics would spot IH's science as duff
    Originally posted by dividendhero

    You've only got to read about the person behind this company and the shenanigans they have gone through to not allow anyone to inspect their "device" and the fact that if its so good why arent they simply selling electricity much cheaper than anyone else, to understand its not kosher. Their device is as credible as L Ron Hubbards "E-Meter".
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • Reaper
    • By Reaper 14th Jun 19, 1:07 PM
    • 6,681 Posts
    • 5,035 Thanks
    Reaper
    Agree 100%, while Woodford himself might not know the difference between fusion & fission, never mind the intracies of binding energy and the coulomb barrier - there are Science PhD's on the board of Woodford
    Originally posted by dividendhero
    Well... actual only one on the investment team. Lucinda Crabtree has a PhD in Pharmacology, so not much help for understanding cold fusion.

    Source
    • Johnnyboy11
    • By Johnnyboy11 14th Jun 19, 1:25 PM
    • 202 Posts
    • 130 Thanks
    Johnnyboy11
    WPCT can be owned for 58 British Pence today, for those with a penchant for risk...
    • Malthusian
    • By Malthusian 14th Jun 19, 1:29 PM
    • 6,730 Posts
    • 10,929 Thanks
    Malthusian
    In a year's time they will showing stats on how the then "current" Wealth 50 has done over the last 5 years without drawing attention to then forgotten Woodford fund losses.
    Originally posted by newatc
    A bit like "copytrading" outfits showing how well their top 5 traders have done over the past month and implying that you'll make 100% a month by copying them. Only the timescale is different.
    • Johnnyboy11
    • By Johnnyboy11 14th Jun 19, 1:33 PM
    • 202 Posts
    • 130 Thanks
    Johnnyboy11
    Well... actual only one on the investment team. Lucinda Crabtree has a PhD in Pharmacology, so not much help for understanding cold fusion.

    Source
    Originally posted by Reaper

    I once interviewed a Doctor who used the post nominal letters PhD, ABD after his name. Going great until I enquired what the letters ABD stood for. "All But Dissertation" came the response!
    • StellaN
    • By StellaN 14th Jun 19, 1:40 PM
    • 301 Posts
    • 154 Thanks
    StellaN
    WPCT can be owned for 58 British Pence today, for those with a penchant for risk...
    Originally posted by Johnnyboy11
    I noticed on the HL website (for the trust), that somebody bought nearly 600K worth of shares this morning, they paid 59.20

    I'm still considering whether invest a small sum although I understand the problems with some of its holdings such as IH but there are a few holdings that could produce some value.
    Last edited by StellaN; 14-06-2019 at 1:51 PM.
    • Scarpacci
    • By Scarpacci 14th Jun 19, 2:49 PM
    • 996 Posts
    • 2,480 Thanks
    Scarpacci
    Another big drop in Kier, down 35% today. According to the last filing, Woodford owns 15% of the company.

    I'm sure he'll be along to tell us the problem is just that the defensive stocks are overvalued. If he thought the UK domestic stocks were the most undervalued he's seen in thirty years, he must be downright giddy now. They just keep falling.
    This is everybody's fault but mine.
    • Thrugelmir
    • By Thrugelmir 14th Jun 19, 5:57 PM
    • 64,786 Posts
    • 57,201 Thanks
    Thrugelmir

    I'm sure he'll be along to tell us the problem is just that the defensive stocks are overvalued. If he thought the UK domestic stocks were the most undervalued he's seen in thirty years, he must be downright giddy now. They just keep falling.
    Originally posted by Scarpacci
    Broking houses will know that WPCT needs to liquidate holdings and will mark down prices accordingly. Buyers market. There's no sentiment.
    If the financial system has a defect, it is that it reflects and magnifies what we human beings are like. Money amplifies our tendency to overreact, to swing from exuberance when things are going well to deep depression when they go wrong. Booms and busts are products, at root, of our emotional volatility.
    ― Niall Ferguson
    • itwasntme001
    • By itwasntme001 14th Jun 19, 10:03 PM
    • 321 Posts
    • 144 Thanks
    itwasntme001
    Stay away from all things Woodford - he is toxic!!
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

81Posts Today

2,085Users online

Martin's Twitter