Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • luiza8
    • By luiza8 16th May 19, 4:46 PM
    • 51Posts
    • 12Thanks
    luiza8
    Making a revised offer after a Homebuyers report
    • #1
    • 16th May 19, 4:46 PM
    Making a revised offer after a Homebuyers report 16th May 19 at 4:46 PM
    Hi.

    We negotiated the sale of a property from 164k to 153k. It has since come about, after the homebuyers that there are more works to be done. We could do with either a new roof or fixing the existing roof.

    I spoke with the estate agent and told her this and she said that she thought I already knew this and took that into account when I made my offer. I said that I wasn't a professional surveyor (I know nothing!) and how could I have made that judgement call. She then went on to say she doesn't know if the seller will reduce the price.

    Firstly we are proceed able. No chain. Seller has had the property on the market for 6 months (long time for the area and kind of property). Seller has had no reasonable offers apart from ours, and therefore hasn't accepted another offer.

    I find it infuriating that the state agent implied that I should have known the roof was in need of work.

    I think it's totally acceptable to make a raised offer. Don't you agree?

    She also said if I had any more questions regarding the property I should go through the solicitor, but if I wanted to make a revised offer then I should do it through her. This sounds like she wants to be in control of the sale and the negotiating rather than the solicitor. She is working for a fixed fee so getting the most for the vendor isn't as much a priority as it would be for a % based fee.

    Should I put the revised offer in through my solicitor or through the estate agent?

    thanks for reading my blurb! rant over!
Page 2
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 16th May 19, 5:21 PM
    • 22,392 Posts
    • 21,209 Thanks
    AdrianC
    It's very simple. The surveyor thinks it's worth your offer IN THE CONDITION HE VIEWED IT.

    Yes, it needs roof work. If it didn't, it'd be worth more. The price takes the roof work into account.

    So, no, you do not have valid grounds for renegotiation.
    • luiza8
    • By luiza8 16th May 19, 5:23 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    luiza8
    but with respect the property has been valued by a qualified surveyor to take into account the whole property condition.

    TBH its going to be very difficult to persuade any seller that you should have further money off the house price if the surveyor has valued it at that amount in its current condition
    Originally posted by need an answer
    I see. It's my first property and first offer that I've made so I wasn't sure if I was able to reduce the price with the works that need to be done. By the sounds of it I base my offers off the valuation from the surveyor. It's good to get this cleared up

    If the property is valued by the surveyor at the price you have offered and had accepted what is the case for you negotiating any reduction?

    With Gas & Electricity it is not common to have certificates (gas safety is needed if you are renting out a property). If you want to assure yourself all is ok commission inspections and keep the certificates. As said above they are for you and you only.
    Originally posted by giraffe69
    Thanks for clearing this up. I wasn't aware that I wasn't;t able to negotiate further as the price is what it's valued at.

    If you have been renting you will have seen safety certificates that a landlord must provide, but it's not the same for owner-occupiers.


    Some people have service records for their gas appliances and others don't.

    It's not usual for a vendor to supply an electrical condition certificate. That's something a buyer can obtain if they feel one is needed.
    Originally posted by Davesnave
    He was renting it out up until December 2018, so he should have a gas cert going back to at least Dec 17?
    • luiza8
    • By luiza8 16th May 19, 5:24 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    luiza8
    It's very simple. The surveyor thinks it's worth your offer IN THE CONDITION HE VIEWED IT.

    Yes, it needs roof work. If it didn't, it'd be worth more. The price takes the roof work into account.

    So, no, you do not have valid grounds for renegotiation.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    Thanks for clearing that up. As mentioned in my previous post, I'm a first time buyer and wasn't aware that I would have no leverage for further negotiations.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 16th May 19, 5:25 PM
    • 22,392 Posts
    • 21,209 Thanks
    AdrianC
    You can always ask... But if I were the vendor, I'd be handing your surveyor's valuation right back to you with my finger pointing straight at the line that says the house is worth your offer.

    Then you have to decide whether to continue or walk.
    • luiza8
    • By luiza8 16th May 19, 5:28 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    luiza8
    Yes, I would do the same now I realise how it works!
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 16th May 19, 5:33 PM
    • 1,487 Posts
    • 1,781 Thanks
    need an answer



    He was renting it out up until December 2018, so he should have a gas cert going back to at least Dec 17?
    Originally posted by luiza8
    The vendor may well have a gas safety certificate that was done some time in the previous year although as I said earlier the testing that is carried out simply confirms that on that particular day the appliances were functioning.

    Think of it in the same way as you would a car MOT that's a snapshot on a particular day...it is valid for a year but it doesn't mean that something wont break during that period of time or before the next gas safety check is carried out.(or indeed MOT)

    In the same way I explained that if you get a gas safety check done its your document and it belongs to you,the vendor may have decided not to share his certificate with you.
    Last edited by need an answer; 16-05-2019 at 5:38 PM.
    in S 19 T 6 F 27
    out S 26 T 9 F 25
    2017 -32 2018 -33
    • luiza8
    • By luiza8 16th May 19, 6:02 PM
    • 51 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    luiza8
    The vendor may well have a gas safety certificate that was done some time in the previous year although as I said earlier the testing that is carried out simply confirms that on that particular day the appliances were functioning.

    Think of it in the same way as you would a car MOT that's a snapshot on a particular day...it is valid for a year but it doesn't mean that something wont break during that period of time or before the next gas safety check is carried out.(or indeed MOT)

    In the same way I explained that if you get a gas safety check done its your document and it belongs to you,the vendor may have decided not to share his certificate with you.
    Originally posted by need an answer
    Yes, that's a good analogy!

    So if I pay for a gas cert or an electricity cert then I will get it and it's my property? The owner won't be able to call the company and ask for the certificate, or ask for it to be reprinted as the hardware is his and on his property? Going back to the MOT analogy - if I paid for an MOT on a sellers car, and decided not to buy it, then the car would still have the MOT even though I had paid for it.
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 16th May 19, 6:08 PM
    • 1,487 Posts
    • 1,781 Thanks
    need an answer
    Yes, that's a good analogy!

    So if I pay for a gas cert or an electricity cert then I will get it and it's my property? The owner won't be able to call the company and ask for the certificate, or ask for it to be reprinted as the hardware is his and on his property? Going back to the MOT analogy - if I paid for an MOT on a sellers car, and decided not to buy it, then the car would still have the MOT even though I had paid for it.
    Originally posted by luiza8
    yes the certificate is yours...although I wonder if you are placing too much importance on having a certificate.

    What is it that you are actually planning to do with the certificate and what protection do you think it will give you?

    Its not a guarantee that the boiler wont fail within a year,its not even a guarantee that something wont break and need replacing the day after the certificate is produced.

    it cant realistically be used as leverage against the seller if the boiler breaks down a few days after you move in.

    in essence below is copied what is checked as part of a gas safety certification(its taken from a LL website as its a requirement for a LL to have one for every rented property with gas appliances.... its the same thing that can be done if a homeowner or potential purchaser requests the certificate...expect to pay about 60 for the gas certification...I'm sorry I don't know the cost of a full electrical inspection but my guess is its more...possibly a couple of hundred s...someone else may me able to confirm

    To summarise, a CP12 Certificate and Gas Safety Check Certificate are one in the same, and will include the following aspects as part of the checks.
    Gas appliances will be checked for gas tightness
    Burner pressure and gas rate will be checked against the manufactures data plate.
    The engineer will ensure that the relevant ventilation is in place.
    Any appliances posing to be a danger are reported, and the tenant is made aware.
    The flue flow will be tested to ensure combustion is removed.
    Flame failure devices are checked to ensure they are fully operable.
    These checks, along with others, will be reported on your CP12 Gas Safety certificate. A copy of this check will be delivered to both the landlord and tenant,


    With electrics on a surveyors report its highly unlikely unless the property has been very recently rewired that it would be given a condition rating of good. Most surveyors will opt for a 2 or even 3 simply because if the installation is more than a year or so old its probably not going to comply with whatever the current regulations are.

    I had a property totally rewired about 6 years ago and there were some elements that didn't comply with current regulations within a year...that didn't mean the rewire wasn't safe it just meant that electrics had been classified differently....what passed with flying colours when it was installed becomes out of date very quickly in the world of electricians.
    Last edited by need an answer; 16-05-2019 at 6:27 PM.
    in S 19 T 6 F 27
    out S 26 T 9 F 25
    2017 -32 2018 -33
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 16th May 19, 7:10 PM
    • 28,121 Posts
    • 99,471 Thanks
    Davesnave

    I had a property totally rewired about 6 years ago and there were some elements that didn't comply with current regulations within a year...that didn't mean the rewire wasn't safe it just meant that electrics had been classified differently....what passed with flying colours when it was installed becomes out of date very quickly in the world of electricians.
    Originally posted by need an answer
    This is true. By the time we finished our renovations, the electrics which began as soon as we did the first room, were out of date by the time they were signed off!
    'I've suffered for my music, now it's your turn.' Neil Innes, introducing 'Protest Song.'
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 16th May 19, 9:10 PM
    • 14,251 Posts
    • 16,960 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    The homebuyers report said they were of high severity. While they both looked in good condition but they had to put them down as a 3 (most severe) as there was no certificate to show they're in good condition.
    .
    Originally posted by luiza8
    God save me from FTBs when I sell this house.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 16th May 19, 9:25 PM
    • 26,752 Posts
    • 71,667 Thanks
    Doozergirl
    This is true. By the time we finished our renovations, the electrics which began as soon as we did the first room, were out of date by the time they were signed off!
    Originally posted by Davesnave
    Has happened to me too over 18 months.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • lookstraightahead
    • By lookstraightahead 16th May 19, 10:19 PM
    • 1,104 Posts
    • 982 Thanks
    lookstraightahead
    You can offer what you like and the vendor can accept what they like. Simples
    • Alfrescodave
    • By Alfrescodave 17th May 19, 9:15 AM
    • 673 Posts
    • 399 Thanks
    Alfrescodave
    God save me from FTBs when I sell this house.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    FTB's are like learner drivers - we've all been one once and large quantities of patience should be applied when dealing with them.

    BUT sometimes it's flippin hard work dealing with them
    • Albala
    • By Albala 17th May 19, 6:17 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 145 Thanks
    Albala
    I do get a little irritated by people saying that if the valuation in the survey is at the offer price you should not be dropping the offer whatever has emerged in the survey.
    Take this scenario.
    Buyer A has 200,000 he can afford to spend. House is up for 195,000. A notices a few things need doing, costs them at 7,000. Offers 190,000, which will leave him 3,00 in hand for anything unsuspected. Offer is accepted.
    Surveyor finds 8,000 more of stuff that needs doing PDQ which would not have been evident to an ordinary buyer, like A. But surveyor still values it at 190.
    Now, A can only afford to pay 200,000, less the 7,000 of work he noticed and costed, and the 8 the surveyor noticed. So he can only afford to pay 185. He needs to drop his offer by a further 5,000.
    The surveyor's valuation (which might easily be + or - 10,000 with another surveyor) is 190.


    What can A do other than explain, show the quotes for the extra 8,000, and ask for a 5,000 reduction?


    Do people think A ought to just walk away and not even give the vendor a chance to accept a lower offer if they choose to, or what?


    In a sense, the valuation is irrelevant, if A cannot pay more than 200,000 overall, they can't. And a vendor may well consider that the problems the surveyor found will only come out on the next buyer's survey if they refuse to drop, and the whole thing will repeat. If the the vendor can't drop, then they can't, it's sad for both sides, but the sale can't go ahead. But I really don't think it is unreasonable for a buyer to drop their offer in these circumstances.



    (Similarly, of course, a low valuation may still not leave the vendor the money they need, so it may not help a buyer get a lower price.)
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 17th May 19, 6:28 PM
    • 14,251 Posts
    • 16,960 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Albala, I think you've muddled up two things there.
    What the buyer can afford (or is willing to pay)
    What the valuation says the property is worth.

    The first does not invalidate the second. The buyer can of course say "look there's 8k worth of stuff doing as is explained in this report so I need to drop by that since I can't afford it". they could also say "I don't care what the valuation says I can't afford that so I'll offer X"
    To which the seller can say any of "I don't care", "let's meet in the middle", or "sling your hook"
    What the buyer cannot use as a reason is "there's this much cost in the report that needs deducting" because "this much cost" is already allowed for in the report.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 17-05-2019 at 6:31 PM.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • Albala
    • By Albala 17th May 19, 7:21 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 145 Thanks
    Albala
    Albala, I think you've muddled up two things there.
    What the buyer can afford (or is willing to pay)
    What the valuation says the property is worth.

    The first does not invalidate the second. The buyer can of course say "look there's 8k worth of stuff doing as is explained in this report so I need to drop by that since I can't afford it". they could also say "I don't care what the valuation says I can't afford that so I'll offer X"
    To which the seller can say any of "I don't care", "let's meet in the middle", or "sling your hook"
    What the buyer cannot use as a reason is "there's this much cost in the report that needs deducting" because "this much cost" is already allowed for in the report.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    I take your point, (but it needs deducting from the offer in those circs whatever the survey says, wouldn't you say?)but my point was that a number of posters on this forum do the equivalent of a verbal hatchet job on a buyer who is suggesting reducing an offer after a survey if the valuation is above the revised offer, which is just illogical. I have seen some really nasty and unfair attacks on new posters where the attackers didn't even bother to read the OP properly on just this very issue (and others).
    Earlier this year we reduced an offer due to work that wasn't visible on viewings needing doing. In fact, we dropped the offer by well less than a third of the extra costs, for which we provided quotes, and our revised offer was still 15,000 over the valuation, but I didn't provide the valuation as an argument, because, as I said, in terms of negotiation, it's irrelevant either way. What counts is what we can/will pay, and what the vendor will/can't accept; though I'd say it's 'manners' to allow the vendor to see any quotes so they know you aren't mucking them about or lying. Of course, a lower valuation for mortgage is different; it's relevant, because if the buyer can't borrow enough, they can't do the necessary work, and unless the vendor can find a cash buyer, it is likely to happen again with another buyer, so they need to know.
    • TCD
    • By TCD 18th May 19, 10:59 AM
    • 3 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    TCD
    Genuine question - how often do surveyors give a price anywhere much different to the offer/accepted price? They know that going in and it is amazing to me how every surveyor I've ever dealt with so happens to give the valuation at the price accepted or near enough.

    Bottom line is how much you want the house. You can negotiate up until completion. But then it is how much you want the house vs spare money at odds with how much the vendor wants to sell vs lose a bit more money they had hoped for. They often have a price they need for buying on as well, to consider.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 18th May 19, 11:01 AM
    • 22,392 Posts
    • 21,209 Thanks
    AdrianC
    Genuine question - how often do surveyors give a price anywhere much different to the offer/accepted price? They know that going in and it is amazing to me how every surveyor I've ever dealt with so happens to give the valuation at the price accepted or near enough.
    Originally posted by TCD
    Above? Almost never.
    Below? Regularly, when they think they've found things that aren't taken into account in the price.
    • Davesnave
    • By Davesnave 18th May 19, 1:45 PM
    • 28,121 Posts
    • 99,471 Thanks
    Davesnave
    Above? Almost never.
    Below? Regularly, when they think they've found things that aren't taken into account in the price.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    But we had the following post this week:


    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=75813368&postcount=95
    'I've suffered for my music, now it's your turn.' Neil Innes, introducing 'Protest Song.'
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 18th May 19, 1:46 PM
    • 22,392 Posts
    • 21,209 Thanks
    AdrianC
    ..."almost"...
Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

3,974Posts Today

4,309Users online

Martin's Twitter
  • This is a very useful and interesting, factual piece about what the PM's new Brexit proposals mean and how new they? https://t.co/qM1bCz6FZp

  • After two cancellations, I'm on the 3rd train back from Manch. Just heard its being rerouted as someone's taken tak? https://t.co/sRO4cvoWIw

  • RT @helen_undy: It's hard campaigning at the moment. Trying to cut through amid Brexit votes, protests & political resignations can feel fu?

  • Follow Martin