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  • FIRST POST
    • Jeden
    • By Jeden 16th May 19, 11:34 AM
    • 52Posts
    • 19Thanks
    Jeden
    Letter Of Claim BW Legal
    • #1
    • 16th May 19, 11:34 AM
    Letter Of Claim BW Legal 16th May 19 at 11:34 AM
    Hi all.

    I have recently received a letter of claim at work for my company vehicle claiming I owe £160.00 for a parking contravention dating back to 2015 on behalf of Premier Parking LTD.

    I need to add that i previously had one letter relating to this from the aptly named Wright Hassal however emailed asking for evidence which was not responded to.

    I now have a this Notice of Claim arrive almost 4 years later asking me to fill out my personal financial situation (which i wont of course).

    I plan to defend this vigorously and have sent the following robust response to BW legal via email requesting all evidence. (taken from another thread and adapted to suit)

    Thank you for your letter dated 29th of April 2019

    When your client's debt collectors first started contacting me, I asked them for details of the basis upon which money was being claimed, including all photographs taken of the vehicle at the relevant time plus photographs of the signage. No such evidence has been provided.

    You have now sent a Letter of Claim. However, your letter contains insufficient detail of the claim and, again, fails to provide the photographic evidence which I requested back in 2015. It does not even say what the cause of action is. Nor does it contain any mention of what evidence your client intends to rely on, or enclose copies of such evidence.
    Your client must know that on 01 October 2017 a new protocol is applicable to debt claims. Since proceedings have not yet been issued, the new protocol clearly applies and must be complied with.

    Your letter clearly breaches both the requirements of the previously applicable Practice Direction - Pre-Action Conduct (paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c)) and the new Pre-Action Protocol for Debt Claims (paragraphs 3.1(a)-(d), 5.1 and 5.2. Please treat this letter as a formal request for all of the documents / information that the protocol now requires your client to provide. Your client must not issue proceedings without complying with that protocol. I reserve the right to draw any failure of the Claimant to comply with the protocol to the attention of the court and to ask the court to stay the claim and order your client to comply with its pre-action obligations, and when costs come to be considered.
    Nobody, including your client, is immune from the requirements and obligations of the Practice Direction.
    Your letter also states that an income/expenditure form requires completing. This is totally misleading, as it only relates to anyone who admits the debt.
    I am fully aware that BW Legal were 'named and shamed' in a Parliamentary debate, where MPs unanimously clamoured to expose rogue parking firms and their 'cosy relationship' with firms like BW Legal making a mint from their clients' rogue ticketing and unfair fining. Poor signage, unreasonable terms, exorbitant fines and aggressive demands for payment have no place in the 21st century and companies like yourself are an absolute disgrace.!!!


    I require your client to comply with its obligations by sending me the following information/documents:

    1. an explanation of the cause of action
    2. whether they are pursuing me as driver or keeper
    3. whether they are relying on the provisions of Schedule 4 of POFA 2012
    4. what the details of the claim are (where it is claimed the car was parked, for how long, how the monies being claimed arose and have been calculated, what contractual breach (if any) is being claimed)
    5. a copy of the contract with the landowner under which they assert authority to bring the claim
    6. a copy of any alleged contract with the driver
    7. a plan showing where any signs were displayed
    8. details of the signs displayed (size of sign, size of font, height at which displayed)
    9. If they have added anything on to the original charge, what that represents and how it has been calculated.

    I am clearly entitled to this information under paragraphs 6(a) and 6(c) of the Practice Direction. I also need it in order to comply with my own obligations under paragraph 6(b).

    If your client does not provide me with this information then I put you on notice that I will be relying on the cases of Webb Resolutions Ltd v Waller Needham & Green [2012] EWHC 3529 (Ch), Daejan Investments Limited v The Park West Club Limited (Part 20) !!!8211; Buxton Associates [2003] EWHC 2872, Charles Church Developments Ltd v Stent Foundations Limited & Peter Dann Limited [2007] EWHC 855 in asking the court to impose sanctions on your client and to order a stay of the proceedings, pursuant to paragraphs 13 ,15(b) and (c) and 16. I will draw to the court the fact that I have expressly requested this information in 2015, yet your client has yet to provide it.

    Until your client has complied with its obligations and provided this information, I am unable to respond properly to the alleged claim and to consider my position in relation to it, and it is entirely premature (and a waste of costs and court time) for your client to issue proceedings. Should your client do so, then I will seek an immediate stay pursuant to paragraph 15(b) of the Practice Direction and an order that this information is provided.



    I have started looking into where the violation happened and have come across these!

    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Restaurant_Review-g186400-d3948808-Reviews-The_Breakfast_Junction-Warwick_Warwickshire_England.html

    https://www.google.com/search?q=the+breakfast+junction+cafe+warwick&rlz=1 C1CHBF_en-GBGB785GB785&oq=the+bre&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j0j69i59 j69i57j69i61j69i60.1167j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

    As you can see in the google reviews and tripadvisor reviews it seems the cafe that was operating there were issuing tickets to their own paying customers. The cafe is now closed down (surprise surprise) and all signage relating to parking restrictions no longer appears to be there, so I am wondering how I would go about defending this fully without knowing exact locations of the signs and wording contained on them as well as font size ANPR cameras etc?

    I think it's quite clear the cafe was operating some sort of scam aided by Premier Park Limited and I am determined to not let them get away with it, I just hope the courts see it the same way!
    Last edited by Jeden; 16-05-2019 at 8:13 PM.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 19, 2:51 PM
    • 72,078 Posts
    • 84,415 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 16th May 19, 2:51 PM
    • #2
    • 16th May 19, 2:51 PM
    Don't use that ancient 2017 response.

    Where did you find that, it's not been linked in the NEWBIES thread for a year or more, has it?

    Bin it.
    I have recently received a letter of claim at work for my company vehicle claiming I owe £160.00 for a parking contravention dating back to 2015 on behalf of Premier Parking LTD.
    First things first, WHO is it addressed to? Surely not the company?

    Why have they not got your home address?

    Is it your company that you own, or a company that you work for?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Jeden
    • By Jeden 16th May 19, 3:29 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Jeden
    • #3
    • 16th May 19, 3:29 PM
    • #3
    • 16th May 19, 3:29 PM
    thanks for the response.

    The response was done by somebody in late 2018 and wasnít put into the newbie thread at any point as far as I'm aware. The main reason I wanted to respond with that was just to gain the information as I haven't received anything that they hold about the fine other than them telling me itís owed. No pictures of the car etc.

    Yes, the letter has been addressed to the company by name and they have given it to me to deal with.
    • Jeden
    • By Jeden 16th May 19, 3:30 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Jeden
    • #4
    • 16th May 19, 3:30 PM
    • #4
    • 16th May 19, 3:30 PM
    Itís a company that I work for.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 19, 3:35 PM
    • 72,078 Posts
    • 84,415 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 16th May 19, 3:35 PM
    • #5
    • 16th May 19, 3:35 PM
    Riiiight, then it's not correct to say:
    I have recently received a letter of claim
    or
    I now have a this Notice of Claim arrive almost 4 years later asking me to fill out my personal financial situation
    Wow your company are about to be SUED. And they will not be happy.

    This is nothing to do with you unless they handle it properly, they can't just pass a LBC to you and you can't respond to it, unless they transfer liability to you!

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75816544#post75816544

    Show them this thread, and the link there showing them the letter to write!

    URGENT.

    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Jeden
    • By Jeden 16th May 19, 3:51 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Jeden
    • #6
    • 16th May 19, 3:51 PM
    • #6
    • 16th May 19, 3:51 PM
    Luckily we are a small company so I will get them to send the response tomorrow.

    Shall I send it special delivery or via email?

    I presume this is the response you are referring to?

    We confirm that (blanked for privacy) is the vehicle's owner, but since it is a company fleet vehicle, we are not the 'keeper' for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 ("POFA"),

    This letter acts as our compliance with that Act. Given that we have duly provided you with the name and address of the driver above, we have transferred any liability for parking charges before court action began. This is as set out in statute and is not subject to any initial 'appeal' deadline of 28 days that UKCPM might have imagined exists.

    Liability has de facto passed to the driver and we have kept proof of posting this letter.

    You must now take the matter up with the driver. We can confirm that he is aware of this matter and we have passed the recent paperwork to him, although you will of course need to send him a PAP-compliant Letter of Claim if you intend to pursue the driver.

    You must also erase our company data under the GDPR and DPA 2018 and are hereby barred by the POFA from pursuing {company name} at all.

    If we are required to respond again, you are hereby fairly warned that this will no longer be a free service and from this date forward we will formally invoice Premier Parking Limited for our time and trouble at £50 per letter, and will enforce such sum(s) that remain unpaid, with our cause of action being based upon your tacit agreement of this term by your conduct, if UKCPM or its agents elect to write to {company name} about this matter again.

    yours faithfully,

    Within the response it doesn’t set out where to name the driver? Should I get them to just add this in at the beginning?

    I really appreciate the advice!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th May 19, 3:55 PM
    • 22,461 Posts
    • 28,475 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 16th May 19, 3:55 PM
    • #7
    • 16th May 19, 3:55 PM
    at no stage is the driver named, that is a secret and remains so throughout

    and as mentioned above, YOU have not received any paperwork in your name (yet) - the company should have followed POFA and named the lessee/hirer/keeper , to absolve themselves under POFA (a 6.5 year old law and ignorance of the law is no defence)

    the hirer or lessee (day to day KEEPER is named , if anyone is going to be named)

    the PPC nor B W LEGAL has any idea who was driving , neither does the company (officially) - it could have been me , or a mechanic at the garage, who knows

    the only certainty in a company is who hired or leased the vehicle (if its a company vehicle , then the KEEPER on the day is a hirer or more likely a lessee)

    ensure UKCPM is not mentioned in any response, as they are not involved
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 19, 3:58 PM
    • 72,078 Posts
    • 84,415 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 16th May 19, 3:58 PM
    • #8
    • 16th May 19, 3:58 PM
    Shall I send it special delivery or via email?
    Neither.

    Tomorrow is FRIDAY. Dunno about you, but for me SD is a NONO. Think about it:

    Special Delivery on a Friday, to a company that is no doubt closed on Saturdays, costing you a fiver just to achieve non-delivery and for it to sit at the Post Office, then on Monday the scumbags could refuse to sign - then your company has permanent PROOF of non delivery!

    Post a first class letter from a Director of the company, complying with the 'transfer of liability' section in para 13/14 of Schedule 4 (read it first).

    Make sure they only name you as the HIRER/LESSEE, and NOT the 'driver'.

    I gave you a link showing the extra wording to add. They need to include it to see the scam off in your direction.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Jeden
    • By Jeden 16th May 19, 3:59 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Jeden
    • #9
    • 16th May 19, 3:59 PM
    • #9
    • 16th May 19, 3:59 PM
    This letter acts as our compliance with that Act. Given that we have duly provided you with the name and address of the driver above
    The above states that the driver is to be named? From your response is that not the case? Do they need to name me as the keeper then not the driver?

    I will amend the response to suit our criteria and remove and references to parties not involved before sending.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th May 19, 4:02 PM
    • 22,461 Posts
    • 28,475 Thanks
    Redx
    lessee or hirer , the company has no knowledge of who was driving and neither do the claimants , the lesse may do but isnt saying , ie:- why hand that knowledge to them on a plate making it easier for the claimant to sue successfully ?

    hire and lease firms name the hirer or lessee (BVRLA guidelines) , so your company does the same, its that simple , nothing difficult about it , less is more - reword accordingly
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Jeden
    • By Jeden 16th May 19, 4:02 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Jeden
    Just read your response coupon.

    Thanks again, I will send he letter first class tomorrow with proof of postage.

    In the meantime I will swat up on POFA as you suggest. I will keep you updated.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 19, 4:03 PM
    • 72,078 Posts
    • 84,415 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The above states that the driver is to be named? From your response is that not the case? Do they need to name me as the keeper then not the driver?

    I will amend the response to suit our criteria and remove and references to parties not involved before sending.
    Originally posted by Jeden
    That's because in the linked thread (that you need to read, to see the difference from your case) the WIFE wasn't happy to be named as hirer and fight it, so I had no choice but to tell the OP to get the company to cut out the middle woman and name HIM as the known driver.

    That is rare and your case is not like that. You are the lessee of the car.

    They must give your NAME AND ADDRESS FOR SERVICE, PLUS:

    See the wording I suggested a company should add, it is IMPORTANT they are robust, as this is an utter scam and they are in the firing line.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Jeden
    • By Jeden 16th May 19, 4:04 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Jeden
    On another note. What do you think about the links I shared with regards to where it took place? I know it’s a bit down the line but I don’t have the ability to check signage etc as it no longer exists. Is this a good thing for me or a hinderence?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th May 19, 4:05 PM
    • 22,461 Posts
    • 28,475 Thanks
    Redx
    whats wrong with GSV historical pics ?
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Jeden
    • By Jeden 16th May 19, 4:12 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Jeden
    The pictures on GSV are post 2015 from what I can see. I will double check however I canít see any that show any of the parking signage etc. As I mentioned the cafe that was there has closed down so premier parking no longer operate their scams there.
    • Jeden
    • By Jeden 16th May 19, 4:17 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Jeden
    Just double checked and itís all been demolished by the look of it!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th May 19, 4:33 PM
    • 22,461 Posts
    • 28,475 Thanks
    Redx
    then in any court claim you put the claimant to strict proof of the signs that existed at the time, it is their job to prove their court claim with exhibits like landowner contract and signage etc , so you put them to that strict proof, if they fail you ask the judge to throw the claim out due to no evidence or incorrect evidence


    under the PaP oct 2017 rules you can ask them for these items (which they may refuse or ignore, in which case you point that out to the judge)


    you can also SAR the claimant once its in your name as lessee
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Jeden
    • By Jeden 16th May 19, 4:35 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Jeden
    Great.

    Thank you again guys. I will keep you updated on my progress.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 19, 5:30 PM
    • 72,078 Posts
    • 84,415 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Did you know you can change the date on GSV? There is a little arrow on the left.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Jeden
    • By Jeden 16th May 19, 6:28 PM
    • 52 Posts
    • 19 Thanks
    Jeden
    I have been using it via the IOS App so I donít think that option exists. Iíll try it on my desktop and see what I can find.
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