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  • FIRST POST
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 15th May 19, 12:46 PM
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    50Twuncle
    Car Park fines
    • #1
    • 15th May 19, 12:46 PM
    Car Park fines 15th May 19 at 12:46 PM
    There is a car park near us – owned by the local council – but the parking is restricted to those attending a local hall....
    The council have contracted a company to administer fines for parking digressors (the car park is largely empty 99% of the time)
    This company is UNPAID – But are allowed to keep all the money reaped in through fines
    I would say that this is open to all sorts of inpropriety ?

    Is this, actually legal ?
Page 1
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 15th May 19, 1:11 PM
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    DoaM
    • #2
    • 15th May 19, 1:11 PM
    • #2
    • 15th May 19, 1:11 PM
    Ask a board guide to move this to the Parking forum.
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    • Aylesbury Duck
    • By Aylesbury Duck 15th May 19, 1:47 PM
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    Aylesbury Duck
    • #3
    • 15th May 19, 1:47 PM
    • #3
    • 15th May 19, 1:47 PM
    What's a parking digressor?

    What you've described is a fairly common arrangement so I don't believe it's unlawful.

    Other than the morals of private companies being dodgy and their fines not always being enforceable, what sort of impropriety are you imagining? If people are parking there for reasons other than the use of the hall, that's impropriety.
    • foxy-stoat
    • By foxy-stoat 15th May 19, 2:06 PM
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    foxy-stoat
    • #4
    • 15th May 19, 2:06 PM
    • #4
    • 15th May 19, 2:06 PM
    Incidentally - do you allow parking on your drive for free for people who don't visit your house?
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 15th May 19, 2:29 PM
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    DoaM
    • #5
    • 15th May 19, 2:29 PM
    • #5
    • 15th May 19, 2:29 PM
    Is this, actually legal ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    Probably not if they have parking attendants/wardens. If they're using ANPR then it possibly is ... Councils are forbidden from using ANPR for parking enforcement on Council land.
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    • stator
    • By stator 15th May 19, 2:36 PM
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    stator
    • #6
    • 15th May 19, 2:36 PM
    • #6
    • 15th May 19, 2:36 PM
    If it is private land and adequte signage is provided then I would assume it is legal and proceed accordingly.


    People will argue the toss over the technicalities, but do you really want to get caught up in small claims court over parking fines you claim are illegal.


    When they put the signs up, just make sure they have planning permission. If they don't, complain to the council. That's always worth a laugh to make someone apply for planning permission for a parking sign
    Changing the world, one sarcastic comment at a time.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 15th May 19, 2:37 PM
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    DoaM
    • #7
    • 15th May 19, 2:37 PM
    • #7
    • 15th May 19, 2:37 PM
    Erm - OP says that this is Council land, with parking enforcement subcontracted to a private company. If the PPC have leased the land from the Council that's a different matter.

    As I said earlier, the Parking forum is the best place for this thread.
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    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 15th May 19, 2:52 PM
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    50Twuncle
    • #8
    • 15th May 19, 2:52 PM
    • #8
    • 15th May 19, 2:52 PM
    Erm - OP says that this is Council land, with parking enforcement subcontracted to a private company. If the PPC have leased the land from the Council that's a different matter.

    As I said earlier, the Parking forum is the best place for this thread.
    Originally posted by DoaM

    That is what I thought - I am concerned that a private company (who's only source of income from this contract is from fines) may not exactly run the car park as a "paid" company might
    The number of spaces in the car park is 12 by the way - so its not a huge area !
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 15th May 19, 2:59 PM
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    50Twuncle
    • #9
    • 15th May 19, 2:59 PM
    • #9
    • 15th May 19, 2:59 PM
    If it is private land and adequte signage is provided then I would assume it is legal and proceed accordingly.


    People will argue the toss over the technicalities, but do you really want to get caught up in small claims court over parking fines you claim are illegal.


    When they put the signs up, just make sure they have planning permission. If they don't, complain to the council. That's always worth a laugh to make someone apply for planning permission for a parking sign
    Originally posted by stator

    There is NO pp for the signs - I have checked - do they definitely need pp ?
    • stator
    • By stator 15th May 19, 3:50 PM
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    stator
    Depends on size I expect
    Changing the world, one sarcastic comment at a time.
    • Hunter Jaeger
    • By Hunter Jaeger 15th May 19, 4:14 PM
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    Hunter Jaeger
    Are you planning to park there and just gearing up for the inevitable fight?
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    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 15th May 19, 4:43 PM
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    Johno100
    Probably not if they have parking attendants/wardens. If they're using ANPR then it possibly is ... Councils are forbidden from using ANPR for parking enforcement on Council land.
    Originally posted by DoaM
    Think you've got that the wrong way around, or possibly misread legal as illegal in the post you were replying to.

    There is NO pp for the signs - I have checked - do they definitely need pp ?
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    If not planning permission then most likely advertising consent.You haven't told us the method of enforcement being used I.e. ANPR cameras or an attendant dishing out tickets.

    Also worth pointing out, assuming all your facts are correct in the OP and subsequently, that the car park may still have residuary statutory controls in place from when the council ran the car park. That could well mean that it may not be 'relevant land' for the purposes of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 so they can only pursue the driver of the vehicle and not the keeper.
    Last edited by Johno100; 15-05-2019 at 4:48 PM.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 15th May 19, 7:03 PM
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    DoaM
    Think you've got that the wrong way around, or possibly misread legal as illegal in the post you were replying to.
    Originally posted by Johno100
    Yes - you're right ... I read legal as illegal.

    If there are "boots on the ground" then it is feasible (i.e. probably legal) for a private company to enforce parking regulations for a Council. If the only means of parking enforcement is via ANPR cameras then it is probably NOT legal enforcement ... Councils are banned from using ANPR cameras for parking enforcement on land they own; this probably applies equally to private companies they may subcontract this activity to.
    Last edited by DoaM; 15-05-2019 at 7:07 PM.
    Diary of a madman
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    • iolanthe07
    • By iolanthe07 16th May 19, 2:01 PM
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    iolanthe07
    Were you a hall user? As someone who used to administer a hall, it was infuriating when people parked there using up spaces intended for those who had actually paid to hire the hall, and not fair on genuine hall users. I don't blame the council for enforcing charges, either directly or through a third party.
    I used to think that good grammar is important, but now I know that good wine is importanter.
    • soolin
    • By soolin 16th May 19, 5:15 PM
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    soolin
    I've moved this to the sub board
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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    • waamo
    • By waamo 16th May 19, 5:25 PM
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    waamo
    Yes it's legal. The issue of enforceability is a whole different matter though.
    This space for hire.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 19, 5:27 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    There is a car park near us – owned by the local council – but the parking is restricted to those attending a local hall....
    The council have contracted a company to administer fines for parking digressors
    It's not legally enforceable:

    http://www.bexley-is-bonkers.co.uk/documents/parking/tma_warning.pdf

    http://notomob.co.uk/discussions/index.php?topic=4719.0

    Wycombe Council were banned by the DVLA for trying to operate a car park as if it was private land, using ANPR in that case (and they lost a HUGE sum in lost revenue):

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.com/2014/08/wycombe-district-council-banned-for.html

    This is fully supported by the authority of a January 2019 decision by the Local Government Ombudsman ('LGO') whereby Kent County Council were forced to pay a motorist £100 in compensation for issuing a private parking ticket illegally, and allowing their contractor to wrongly tell the victim registered keeper that they were liable as if POFA could apply on non-relevant land, when it cannot.

    Full report:

    https://www.lgo.org.uk/assets/attach/4521/REPORT%2017004169%20KENT%20CC.pdf

    So, who is going to send Robert Goodwill's original letter, plus that 2019 LGO decision to your local council and ask them under FOI to disclose their legal/other advice and other comms and minutes of Council meetings, which relate to their decision and conclusion that they can go against Parliament's position and against the LGO?

    Who is going to give the local paper chapter & verse on this, to tell locals that it is not lawful for a Council to operate as if their land is private land?

    Someone needs to...go on, open that can of worms!

    Whether or not it's ever had a Parking Places Order is irrelevant, said the LGO in January.

    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-05-2019 at 5:29 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 17th May 19, 7:13 PM
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    50Twuncle
    The council have replied to my email - evidently the size of the signs means that they do not need PP - they are 75cm by 125cm
    I have no idea whether they are telling the truth or not
    The parking is monitored by a chap with a camera not ANPR !!

    It must cost them a fortune employing a man to check all of the local carparks which implies that they are going to need income from fines (remember that this is their only income)
    Last edited by 50Twuncle; 18-05-2019 at 8:38 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 19, 7:19 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    They do not need Planning consent.

    Now move on to raise with the Council, the FAR more important issues that I posted above. I told you to ask them a question under FOI and to show them those links.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 17th May 19, 8:29 PM
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    Johno100
    The council have replied to my email - evidently the size of the signs means that they do not need PP - they are 75cm by 125cm
    Originally posted by 50Twuncle
    And Advertising Consent, did you ask about that?
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