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    • VT1983
    • By VT1983 9th May 19, 9:54 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 1Thanks
    VT1983
    Evicting a family member with no tenancy?
    • #1
    • 9th May 19, 9:54 PM
    Evicting a family member with no tenancy? 9th May 19 at 9:54 PM
    Hello everybody!

    Desperate for any advice..

    My brother has been living in my house and paying rent for the last ten years without any official tenancy agreement. The situation is Iím pregnant and now need to sell the property. He is now refusing access for the estate agents to show prospective buyers around the property. My understanding is I can issue a section 21 to start the eviction process, however, I have never issued him a gas safety or energy certificate (didnít know I needed to - my fault entirely). What options do I have to evict?

    Thanks in advance for any help!
Page 2
    • hazyjo
    • By hazyjo 10th May 19, 9:00 AM
    • 11,671 Posts
    • 15,578 Thanks
    hazyjo
    Another vote for paying him off. Remember he's unlikely to accept the first offer, so give yourself some wiggle (wriggle? even google/dictionaries ain't sure lol!) room.
    2019 wins: Bottle of Prosecco; Popcorn Shed popcorn...
    • need an answer
    • By need an answer 10th May 19, 9:09 AM
    • 1,487 Posts
    • 1,780 Thanks
    need an answer
    Hes refusing viewings,but whats his position on wanting to stay?

    Ask him bluntly what he wants to move out,you need to have that conversation and he needs to realise that at some point he will need to move.

    get an understanding of how he sees things going forward and you'll be in a better position to tackle it.

    As it stands at the moment without allowing viewings its unlikely to see unless you market the property well under its value and with a sitting tenant.
    Explain to him you are prepared to do that and Its my guess he will take a cash bribe to leave
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    • macman
    • By macman 10th May 19, 10:06 AM
    • 43,302 Posts
    • 18,482 Thanks
    macman
    There is no point in serving an S21 until you have properly regulated the tenancy. EPC and, critically, a GSC. If he reports the absence of the latter, then you face an unlimited fine and potentially a prison sentence. The fact that you've not supplied a GSC in ten years, when the law requires an annual inspection, increases the likelihood of a heavier fine. Saying that 'you didn't know it was illegal' is not a valid defence. There is no such thing as an 'official' tenancy agreement: there is either a legal tenancy or there is not, and there is no requirement for it to be written.
    I suspect that he is waiting for you to serve an S21 and then get him evicted in order that he can claim emergency housing. However, this isn't going to work, as the S21 will be invalid. So, as others suggest, you are going to have to pay him off. And, if he is aware that he holds all the cards, that is not going to be cheap.
    Alternatively, you can sell with a sitting tenant, but of course you will take a big hit on the price.
    I find it most unlikely that your mortgage terms allow you to rent to a family member, even if they allow you to rent the property, so you really need to check the terms.
    Finally, does your buildings insurer know the property is tenanted? If not, your policy will be invalid.
    Last edited by macman; 10-05-2019 at 10:14 AM.
    No free lunch, and no free laptop
    • chunkytfg
    • By chunkytfg 10th May 19, 10:16 AM
    • 679 Posts
    • 738 Thanks
    chunkytfg
    The first thing you should do is issue a s.13 to raise the rent to market rates.
    Originally posted by SpiderLegs
    Assuming it isn't the correct way to increase rent while you have this verbal TA then yes do this. Raise the rent to the standard market rate as soon as you can
    Those who risk nothing, Do nothing, achieve nothing, become nothing
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    • Silvertabby
    • By Silvertabby 10th May 19, 10:19 AM
    • 4,164 Posts
    • 6,398 Thanks
    Silvertabby
    Further to previous comments about housing benefit, I'm reasonably sure that he couldn't have claimed that without producing - from whatever source - a written tenancy agreement.
    • wesleyad
    • By wesleyad 10th May 19, 10:24 AM
    • 478 Posts
    • 456 Thanks
    wesleyad
    Really your best bet is to make sure you get everything in order right now. Get the EPC (£40) and Gas (60-120 depending on area and appliances) done straight away. Draw up an actual written AST. Raise rent to market value. Then in 6 months serve S21.

    As Macman says, is it possible he is relying on being rehomed by council? If so they will tell him to wait for eviction.
    • babyblade41
    • By babyblade41 10th May 19, 10:56 AM
    • 662 Posts
    • 768 Thanks
    babyblade41
    So the benefit goes straight to him rather than you as you only know about it through him .?

    I'm finding it very difficult to understand that this has been awarded without an AST and wondered if he had printed one off from the internet with an over inflated rental amount.

    It just doesn't sound feasible

    One other thing , did you state to the EA that it would be sold with vacant possession,? he would have to sign the form in the legal bumf that he would be vacating the property on exchange/completion

    Either way you need to do the right thing now and get everything in place .. a TA , all the safety certs, the little rental handbook, EPC if one hasn't been done .

    You will soon find out what he's been doing when the new rent goes up , there could be major implications with him and the benefit office

    I think you would be looking at a long time to get him out legally with a section 21 or even S8 if he can't afford the new rental amount as all this takes time

    He probably knows this so either do everything above or expect an amount to pay him but that will be a difficult conversation to have and will probably destroy any relationship in the future

    Renting to family members is OK as long as the relationship is understood from the start it is a business arrangement and all that entails including paying rent on time and evicting if it isn't

    Sadly this doesn't work out in many cases, taking a family member to court is upsetting and the repercussions are huge and long term

    Keep us updated as things progress as many people will be in or will be in future this situation

    There are a lot of knowledgeable people on here , they won't soft soap you but will give valuable help to move forward.

    I had a rental property company and did have a very close family member rent from me and yes I did evict but it took a long time especially as the tenant was told to stay put until bailiffs arrived .

    Thankfully everything was in place with the correct docs and safety certs so the day in court was fairly quick as I'd complied with everything .

    Good luck on moving forward
    • theartfullodger
    • By theartfullodger 10th May 19, 11:51 AM
    • 10,273 Posts
    • 14,088 Thanks
    theartfullodger
    Ask council for copy of evidence he provided for tenancy. Might prove useful.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 10th May 19, 12:30 PM
    • 29,470 Posts
    • 17,942 Thanks
    xylophone
    Explain to your brother that if he wants to stay, your own financial situation demands that he pays full market rent?

    Regularise the situation as other posters have mentioned and issue the notice of rent increase?

    Rethink your situation once you are "legal"?
    • Slinky
    • By Slinky 10th May 19, 12:38 PM
    • 5,969 Posts
    • 28,068 Thanks
    Slinky
    No good deed goes unpunished.


    Does your brother have a better nature. Can you not appeal to it that he's had all this time paying a below market rent, you've done him a favour for years, it's time for him to respect that and let you have your property back.
    • csgohan4
    • By csgohan4 10th May 19, 12:43 PM
    • 5,901 Posts
    • 3,880 Thanks
    csgohan4
    No good deed goes unpunished.


    Does your brother have a better nature. Can you not appeal to it that he's had all this time paying a below market rent, you've done him a favour for years, it's time for him to respect that and let you have your property back.
    Originally posted by Slinky

    Sadly it's human nature and he will likely disregard family values and think of himself with him being homeless as a result.

    Morally he ought to go, but he will likely take every legal route to stay there, OP be prepared to lose alot of money/time getting him out

    To those who read this in future, don't rent to relatives, it will only end one way and good intentions can turn sour and as a LL you have more to lose
    "It is prudent when shopping for something important, not to limit yourself to Pound land/Estate Agents"
    • lookstraightahead
    • By lookstraightahead 10th May 19, 1:03 PM
    • 1,104 Posts
    • 982 Thanks
    lookstraightahead
    Perhaps have a chat because it sounds like he could be in trouble if he doesn't cooperate a little.
    • M_Python
    • By M_Python 10th May 19, 2:30 PM
    • 28 Posts
    • 52 Thanks
    M_Python
    Ask council for copy of evidence he provided for tenancy. Might prove useful.
    Originally posted by theartfullodger
    I agree. It could be that he's been committing housing benefit fraud!
    • eddddy
    • By eddddy 10th May 19, 3:02 PM
    • 7,802 Posts
    • 7,901 Thanks
    eddddy
    Ask council for copy of evidence he provided for tenancy. Might prove useful.
    Originally posted by theartfullodger
    I think that an LL asking for details of the AST submitted by their tenant would almost certainly raise the council's suspicions - and perhaps trigger a fraud investigation.


    If the OP's actions gets the brother investigated for HB fraud, the brother might decide to report the OP for LL irregularities in return.

    Pragmatically, it might be better just to use that as leverage in negotiating with the brother.
    • zagubov
    • By zagubov 10th May 19, 10:08 PM
    • 16,093 Posts
    • 133,438 Thanks
    zagubov
    If he's potentially trying to block you from selling the house, when you did him a great favour and now need to withdraw it, is he still behaving like a brother?

    Sometimes people get taken over by something like an addiction, a mental health problem, or a financial problem, which mean they can't behave in a normal way.

    It might be best to realise that he's not capable of acting in a brotherly way any more.

    You've done your best by him until now. It's anybody's guess if he'll be able to restore his relationship with you.

    Is the rest of your extended family totally clear about what is happening?

    Maybe the best way to move him on is to add to his subsidised rent by giving him a bung to move on, but seriously, are you optimistic that will repair the relationship?

    Unless you can find a family member to mediate, I think you already may need to face problems with your future relationship with your brother.
    There is no honour to be had in not knowing a thing that can be known - Danny Baker
    • robatwork
    • By robatwork 11th May 19, 9:59 AM
    • 5,110 Posts
    • 5,873 Thanks
    robatwork
    You've both been silly, and probably the wrong side of the law.

    However your best way out of this isn't through action, but family. Do you have living parents?
    • VT1983
    • By VT1983 16th May 19, 9:27 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    VT1983
    So a quick update. No progress has been made. I’ve asked him twice (in writing) for access for a GSC and EPC and he is refusing access.

    As I understand it, any S21 will therefore be invalid, is this the case even if the tenant refuses access?
    • VT1983
    • By VT1983 16th May 19, 9:28 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    VT1983
    We do have living parents, but I think it will come as no surprise to any of you that he isn’t in contact with them (and I wouldn’t expect them to get involved even if they were).
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 16th May 19, 9:47 PM
    • 14,237 Posts
    • 16,941 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    You need to see a lawyer. And just spend whatever it takes. It can't possibly be a loophole that refusing access for these blocks evictions or everyone would do it.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 17th May 19, 7:53 AM
    • 1,590 Posts
    • 1,992 Thanks
    HampshireH
    You have to give notice.

    Is he refusing to open the door or texting and saying no?

    Ideally you would send 3 letters.

    1 explaining the gas check is required and giving an appt. Explain no cost to tenant.

    2 send no access letter explain importance and the point of it and ask them to contact you to rebook appt.

    3 if no response
    Stress importance and that you will begin legal proveedings to grant an injunction for access.

    You have a legal obligation so you need to seek legal advice & be prepared to go to court for access to the property.

    Keep copies of every document as part of your case.

    Regardless of the fact you haven't complied with the law. That is no excuse not to rectify that now. Regardless of the possible consequences.

    Do you maintain the rest of the home by arranging repairs or does he always sort stuff?
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