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  • FIRST POST
    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 3rd May 19, 10:03 PM
    • 243Posts
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    didgeridoooo
    BW Legal - Any help very much appreciated...
    • #1
    • 3rd May 19, 10:03 PM
    BW Legal - Any help very much appreciated... 3rd May 19 at 10:03 PM
    Hi all. Long time since i was on here.


    This relates to an ANPR ticket issued - vehicle left around 20 minutes after expiry time on ticket due to issues with children




    The ANPR photos only show entering and leaving, they don’t show any parking.

    letter 2, from DRP, letter 3 from DRP, letter 4 from DRP, letter from ZENITH, another from ZENITH, another letter from DRP again. Nothing more for very nearly four years and then I receive the latest one, an alleged Letter Of Claim from BW Legal:






    I am none the wiser on where I stand here and what my best course of action should be. No contact has been made in response to any of the above letters as yet.

    Very grateful for any help with this.
    Thanks




    ----------




    UPDATE 3 October 2019 - To save trawling through thread....


    • BWL issued a LoC, non compliant with CPR (PD) and non compliant with POFA.

    • Decided to rely on primarily a POFA defence, with mitigating circumstances of account of driver. Breastfeeding mother (EA2010)

    • Use of ANPR was not advertised, contravening BPA CoP

    • Had it been advertised, no PCN would have been issued, as childcare issues would have been taken out of car park. Ticket paid for 2 hours, parked less than 2 hours, but took another 25 mins (ish) to leave due to childcare issues, driver assumed safe to do so due to complete lack of ANPR signs.

    • Defence submitted.

    • WS being prepared currently...
    Last edited by didgeridoooo; 17-10-2019 at 5:51 PM. Reason: As requested by members
Page 3
    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 12th Jun 19, 1:03 PM
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    didgeridoooo
    I am struggling a bit to work out whether I can use/refer to the "Practice Directive on Pre Action Conduct and Protocols" or not. Some threads suggest that has been superceded by the "PAP for Debt Claims" (2017). If that's true I need to know as I am using the first one to pull their LOC apart, but I dont want to look stupid to the judge for using irrelevant guidance/directions. Should I completely ignore the first one and ONLY pull teeth from the debt claims one? Or can I use both?

    I am currently using both, but would be very grateful if someone could clarify please.
    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 13th Jun 19, 8:06 PM
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    didgeridoooo
    I have looked for any forums/threads specifically about SARs but can't find one, so I am going to post it here. I SARd Premier Park Limited as soon as I received the LOC from BWL. I note in Newbies thread Coupon-Mad states that if they refuse to supply info then it should be followed up. I want to ask how best to follow that up.

    I asked for (amongst other things) a PDT Machine Record from the ticket machine at the location I was ticketed at. They didn't refer to that, and obviously didn't supply any such information in their reply. They gave a generic 'here's a link to GDPR, we dont have to give you some of what you asked for', without referencing what they were not giving me.

    How should I respond to this? Can I hold up BWL's case against me from going to court while waiting for this? (DPA/GDPR)
    I know I can complain to the ICO (which I will do), but should I write back to PPL and tell them they failed to provide information and I will be complaining unless they supply it?

    My LOC from BWL relates to a PCN issues 5 YEARS ago! Therefore I doubt they have any such PDT machine record, but I would like to hear them SAY that, or say they have got it but are refusing to give it! Any advice on how best t proceed with these failed SARs, appreciated. thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 19, 8:15 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    They do have to give you your data from the PDT machine, if it contains a payment matching your VRN (or arguably, depending on what the ICO thinks, a payment that is indisputably yours, even if the VRN keyed in isn't quite right).

    Similar threads here:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75842109#post75842109

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75818198#post75818198

    I am struggling a bit to work out whether I can use/refer to the "Practice Directive on Pre Action Conduct and Protocols" or not. Some threads suggest that has been superceded by the "PAP for Debt Claims" (2017). If that's true I need to know as I am using the first one to pull their LOC apart, but I dont want to look stupid to the judge for using irrelevant guidance/directions. Should I completely ignore the first one and ONLY pull teeth from the debt claims one? Or can I use both?
    Only the PAP for Debt Claims applies. I would say their LBC is good enough.

    I think zzzLazydaisy's old thread is no longer linked in the NEWBIES thread - or it shouldn't be. Because it is out of date. Only go with what's in the sticky thread.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Jun 19, 8:23 PM
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    KeithP
    I think zzzLazydaisy's old thread is no longer linked in the NEWBIES thread - or it shouldn't be. Because it is out of date.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    It is still linked from the NEWBIES thread - from post #5.

    I mentioned it last month:
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showpost.php?p=75826265&postcount=60
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 19, 8:25 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Oh yes, that was niggling me, as I thought you had mentioned it.

    It will be gone! I'll ask Crabman to open the sticky and stop procrastinating.

    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 13th Jun 19, 8:38 PM
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    didgeridoooo
    They do have to give you your data from the PDT machine, if it contains a payment matching your VRN (or arguably, depending on what the ICO thinks, a payment that is indisputably yours, even if the VRN keyed in isn't quite right).
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Thanks CM. So what do I do about it? Just write back and argue, or report them, or both maybe? Does this enable me to ask BWL to hold proceedings?

    Only the PAP for Debt Claims applies. I would say their LBC is good enough.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    - That knocked me out. I have read so much advice about Practice Direction on Pre Action Conduct & Protocols

    I think zzzLazydaisy's old thread is no longer linked in the NEWBIES thread - or it shouldn't be. Because it is out of date. Only go with what's in the sticky thread.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Yes, I have been round a few loops and rabbit holes leading to information I got excited about only to find it's out of date (mostly my own failure that though as I tend to follow a thread through to the end (sucked in, interested!) before realising an hour or two has gone by and it wasn't progressing my situation!! Again, myself to blame!
    Last edited by didgeridoooo; 19-08-2019 at 4:11 PM.
    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 13th Jun 19, 9:20 PM
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    didgeridoooo
    Just found this in relation to the same car park in question here. Swines. They should HAVE To at least pay a person to stand and deal with things rather than a ticketing conveyor belt machine https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4495276/Parking-firm-fines-family-driving-car-park.html

    https://nmmc.co.uk/visit/getting-here/ - National Maritime Museum owns this damn car park. Won't be visiting them ever again, except perhaps to give a piece of my mind. Is there any point complaining to them direct, considering we are well past LOC stage (and I suspect court proceedings will be underway and expecting a letter any day)
    Last edited by didgeridoooo; 13-06-2019 at 9:23 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 19, 9:24 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    If their LOC is sufficient, I wasted around an entire week of research, learning about PAP etc, writing and deleting draft letters, and now am at the point where I have nothing to say to them, and instead should just prepare my court defence!!
    Exactly, which is what the NEWBIES thread post #2 tells people, effectively.

    There is little to do at LBC stage, and the important research should be preparing by reading court defence threads, because you will be at that stage over the Summer.

    You said "only go with what's in the sticky thread" - I am guessing you mean sticky POST, don't think there are sticky threads, are there?
    Nope, I meant thread.

    This is the NEWBIES thread (think of a thread as like a book with the posts as the 'pages'):

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822

    By contrast, this reply to you is a 'post' (on your thread). 'Page/post' #48.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 13th Jun 19, 9:48 PM
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    didgeridoooo
    [QUOTE=Coupon-mad;75922963]Exactly, which is what the NEWBIES thread post #2 tells people, effectively.[/QUOTE}

    "Effectively", perhaps that means "if you know how to interpret it". Why add the word "effectively"? I have read that thread over and over. I didn't get that impression.
    Last edited by didgeridoooo; 19-08-2019 at 4:12 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Jun 19, 10:59 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    it can refer to a sticky thread (which is 'stuck') to the top of a 'board' or list of forum threads, to grab attention.
    The NEWBIES thread is a sticky thread here, at the top of this board.

    originally Posted by Coupon-mad
    There is little to do at LBC stage, and the important research should be preparing by reading court defence threads, because you will be at that stage over the Summer.
    I am gobsmacked at why nobody else has said that before now? Instead I have been advised (kindly I must add) to research POFA, PAPs, SARs and so on.
    Originally posted by didgeridoooo
    But they were right. You need to research it ready for COURT.

    LBC stage is not a stage when it's worth busting a gut, except at the landowner, as PCNs can always be cancelled pre-court by retailers, etc. if you are persistent.

    In fact following the links AND advice ("read other threads like yours", advised tens of times) is the ONLY way I found out about PD on PAC&P.
    OK. what you seem to be confirming is that the NEWBIES thread didn't tell you to look into the PD and PAP, which is my intention, it's pointless against the average PPC claim these days!

    The intention of the LBC section of the NEWBIES thread is to tell people:

    - Do a SAR to the PPC

    - Do a holding email to the solicitor, and expect a claim anyway.
    That's it. Or a reply like on other BW Legal threads from 2019, if you like*.

    Not spend days looking at the PAP.

    read other threads like yours
    Yes - threads like yours that are heading to court - read them, to prepare for the claim.
    Are you saying don't follow any links
    No. Just because a tiny bit of editing is due shortly, to post #5 (which is not the post you need to read) doesn't mean you should ignore all the links I've painstakingly added over the years and edited regularly.

    The links in the 2nd post of the NEWBIES sticky thread show you example defences, and how to acknowledge a claim, and bargepole's useful thread about COURT PROCEDURES, and how to then do a witness statement, and links to people's experiences in court.

    On the other hand, I spent hours drafting several letters to BWL and I am kinda keen on giving them both barrels now. I haven't much to lose at this point, so I might just fire it off.
    Yes, it can't hurt but you will get nowhere, believe us!

    *Here's one (a thread like yours, Premier Park at LBC stage!) I wrote for someone to have a bit of a go at BW Legal a month ago and whilst it has caused BW Legal to delay, it won't stop them:

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=75782663#post75782663

    So, you can use a version of that if you like but no hanging your hat on it.

    You will get a court claim this year but it's all life experience and no risk to your credit rating or huge costs, and we have a 99% win rate here, so well worth fighting.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 14-06-2019 at 12:05 AM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 14th Jun 19, 12:50 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    A princiapl can order their agent to desist at any time, and at the very least youve shown a court that their supposed beneficiary of this contract - the landholder - doesnt want this to be progressed.
    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 14th Jun 19, 2:17 PM
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    didgeridoooo
    Excellent, thanks very much
    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 14th Jun 19, 7:45 PM
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    didgeridoooo
    I looked on Google Street View (I detest that thing) and I notice there are two street view photos of the entrance to Falmouth Maritime Car Park. One in 2011 (no entry sign) and one in 2018 (entry sign in place). My 'incident' took place in 2015. I am just making a note of this for now for defence later, not sure if it carries any weight, but I think it should at least afford me a reasonable right to bring it up. I can prove there was no entry sign (which I THINK is a legal requirement?) in 2011 before my ticket, and so at some point between then and 2018, they installed one. I wonder when? If any Falmouth locals read this thread and happen to know the answer, I am all ears!



    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 15th Jun 19, 1:15 PM
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    didgeridoooo
    would love to know if the signage issue (at entrance) has any benefit to me in my defence?

    Also I have read a lot of threads where mention is made of lack of valid signatures on papers. Does this only apply to formal court papers (once claim submitted) or does it also apply to LOC/NTK etc?
    thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 19, 4:29 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    Solicitors normally sign with the firm name.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 15th Jun 19, 5:00 PM
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    didgeridoooo
    Yes that's the case with my BWL letters. I read various threads similar to mine (Maritime Museum Car Park, Falmouth) where there was discussion over signatures and whether or not claims were valid, i..e backed up by a signature of someone authorised to sign. I think it was you actually CM, you advised someone to call the Museum and ask for a woman by name, and when they replied "no longer works here" that provided a potential for having the case thrown out as fraudulent. I was just exploring that, but it maybe doesn't apply at my stage.
    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 19, 5:06 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    there was discussion over signatures and whether or not claims were valid, i..e backed up by a signature of someone authorised to sign.
    Above you are talking about a claim, that is meant to have the solicitor's actual name (but BW Legal & Gladstones never bother).

    I was answering your question below, to which the answer is ''no'':
    Does this only apply to formal court papers (once claim submitted) or does it also apply to LOC/NTK etc?
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 19, 6:06 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    On the other hand, if a letter of claim should be signed by a solicitor,
    That's the opposite of what I said. A LOC is not the same thing as a CLAIM FORM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 15th Jun 19, 6:20 PM
    • 243 Posts
    • 122 Thanks
    didgeridoooo
    Apologies, you said a claim should be signed, I mistook a Letter Of Claim for "a claim". I am new round here.
    • didgeridoooo
    • By didgeridoooo 15th Jun 19, 6:59 PM
    • 243 Posts
    • 122 Thanks
    didgeridoooo
    In case any other Falmouth Maritime Car Park defendants are interested, I have spent all day trying to work out this byelaw thing, and it's not easy. I wouldn't be surprised if certain oiks (maybe even Falmouth Maritime Museum itself) hadn't had the maps removed from all the usual places where they should be (like in the legislation docs shown online).

    I have contacted the Harbour Commission and the Museum asking both of them to confirm whether or not byelaws are in place over the car park area. I will update if i hear anything (and chip in on any future Falmouth threads!)

    While I wait, I tried to research it and the best I can get is a God awful 'map' showing the jurisdictional area of the Harbour authority. This map can be seen here: https://www.falmouthharbour.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/20-055-01-Interactive-map.pdf

    I thought, if I could somehow PROVE this beyond any doubt, AND use it to win my case, I could give a bit back to the forum by providing all details to the many future victims of this nasty scheme at the Maritime Car Park. Not sure if I will achieve that, but nice to try.

    It hasn't got any geography on the map, but overlaying or comparing it to a normal map, it doesn't look promising:



    The tip of that arrow is where I put the car park on that map.

    The harbour documents (https://www.falmouthharbour.co.uk/wp/wp-content/uploads/30-130-01-FHC-Byelaws.pdf) clearly discuss the reach of the byelaws extending beyond the SEA, obviously! They exist on land too, but that map appears to only apply to sea area covered by the authority. So this is far from confirmed either way yet, but I will keep trying. Hopefully the harbour will respond next week. Surely we have a right to know the area of jurisdiction as how can we avoid breaking the law if we don't know where the laws end and begin geographically?!
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