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  • FIRST POST
    • Muzzzz
    • By Muzzzz 29th Apr 19, 9:41 AM
    • 66Posts
    • 34Thanks
    Muzzzz
    Northern Parking Services PCN
    • #1
    • 29th Apr 19, 9:41 AM
    Northern Parking Services PCN 29th Apr 19 at 9:41 AM
    Hi all.

    Lucky me, this morning I received a PCN from NPS stating I owe them £100 (£60 if paid in 14 days) as my car allegedly used one of their car parks for 8 minutes.

    Apparently this car park was free for patrons of a restaurant only I received something similar years ago with Parking Eye and won an appeal through POPLA.

    i had a quick look through the newbies thread to refresh my mind. It seems that NPS are a BPA member, am I right in thinking that I send the "ONE SIZE FITS ALL that doesn't state who was driving" first appeal that is blue in that thread?
    Last edited by Muzzzz; 29-04-2019 at 10:57 AM.
Page 4
    • Muzzzz
    • By Muzzzz 12th Jun 19, 7:41 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Muzzzz
    Again, others may think differently, but it seems pretty clear to me that the driver parked, observed the signs, decided they wanted to comply with the operator’s conditions (validate Reg No. upon entering), walked up to the restaurant to do so ... only to find it closed. Permanently so, it transpires, although whether that was evident by any signage at the premises, who knows??

    I can only speak for myself, but if there was no clear signage saying it was closed permanently then I'd probably wander around the building looking for another entrance perhaps, or some indication of what was going on. I'd maybe even ask at one of the nearby bars (most Stocktonians know that a bunch of the bars/restaurants in that Quarter are connected by common owners, although no-one quite knows which ones!). All of that would easily take a good 10-15 minutes.
    Originally posted by Jomot
    I would think that is what happened also, as for signs around the area, I didn't see any around the car park when I went to take pictures. Meaning that the only option would be walking to the restaurant to find it closed and dashing back to the car to avoid a charge.

    Very true about the other doors and what not, you would think the average person is going to try and find out what is going on if there aren't signs present, even googling to see would take a few minutes before you found out and left the car park.

    I think my comments above are okay for their evidence but they are way over 2000 characters so I need to streamline it
    • Muzzzz
    • By Muzzzz 12th Jun 19, 3:46 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Muzzzz
    Can anyone comment on the below as comments

    Not “permit holders only” permit holders & restaurant patrons. https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods)Kelvin Reynolds, BPA Director “there is a difference between grace periods and observation periods and that good practice allows for this. An observation period is the time when an officer should be able to determine the motorist intentions once in the car park. There must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether to comply with the operator’s conditions, either drive away or pay for a ticket” “No time limit is specified as it might take one person five minutes, another person 10 minutes depending on factors, not limited to disability.” NO TIME LIMIT SPECIFIED, for a potential restaurant patron to enter site, park, observe signs, walk to restaurant, find it closed, walk back to car, enter the car/assist any passengers and drive to the exit in under 5 minutes is ludicrous, the operator is not allowing realistic time for drivers to do all of this and then leave, they have failed to uphold a fair observation period.
    Gemma referred wrongly to BPA CoP 13.1 “If a driver is parking without your permission” this wasn’t without permission (see signs) the correct clause 13.2 “If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted” the operator has failed to uphold the grace period.
    Parking is ALL DAY SATURDAY found here (https://finkleandgreen.co.uk/contact/) point about being before 5 is irrelevant, invitation to treat signs are still in place despite being void for impossibility “An impossible contract is a contract which has terms which would be, for whatever reason, impossible to actually fulfil. An impossible contract would therefore be considered not legally binding and would likely be rendered null and void under contract law.”
    In this case the driver seemed to agree to the conditions but couldn’t, the closure of restaurant means reg can’t be verified then left

    I have removed a lot to make it fit the 2000 characters. I did have more info about how their pictures are all aimed at the wall with ToS signs, or close up signs that don't depict how someone driving would see them and how they don't show where the car parked and if they had a sign near them.

    I have removed that as I think the points about observation and grace periods seem to be more of a fair point.

    Can anyone offer advise whether that reads okay or if the picture comments should feature? Also if there is anything about the witness statement I posted that I can comment on? If there is then something needs removing for me to add any more to it.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Jun 19, 6:40 PM
    • 76,396 Posts
    • 89,714 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I think I'd remove this quote to make more characters available:
    “An impossible contract is a contract which has terms which would be, for whatever reason, impossible to actually fulfil. An impossible contract would therefore be considered not legally binding and would likely be rendered null and void under contract law.”
    And add a line that the WS is dated 2016 and is not evidence of the boundary of the site enforcement ('land to the North of xxxxx' is far too vague) nor evidence of authority in 2019 or continuing into perpetuity.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Muzzzz
    • By Muzzzz 12th Jun 19, 8:27 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Muzzzz
    Thanks CM! Very good point about the vague land location I’ll add that.

    Although it’s dated 2016 they say in their comments that it is for 3 years (which it hasn’t yet been as it’s December) and then a rolling contract until either party cancels it thereafter. I’m not sure if that’s in their comments I linked on another post or a picture they attached, I can check if needs be.

    Cheers
    • Muzzzz
    • By Muzzzz 13th Jun 19, 4:04 PM
    • 66 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Muzzzz
    Not “permit holders only” permit holders & restaurant patrons. https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods)Kelvin Reynolds, BPA Director “there is a difference between grace periods and observation periods and that good practice allows for this. An observation period is the time when an officer should be able to determine the motorist intentions once in the car park. There must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe the signs, decide whether to comply with the operator’s conditions, either drive away or pay for a ticket” “No time limit is specified as it might take one person five minutes, another person 10 minutes depending on factors, not limited to disability.” NO TIME LIMIT SPECIFIED, for a potential restaurant patron to enter site, park, observe signs, walk to restaurant, find it closed, walk back to car, enter the car/assist any passengers and drive to the exit in under 5 minutes is ludicrous, the operator is not allowing realistic time for drivers to do all of this and then leave, they have failed to uphold a fair observation period.
    Gemma referred wrongly to BPA CoP 13.1 “If a driver is parking without your permission” this wasn’t without permission (see signs) the correct clause 13.2 “If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted” the operator has failed to uphold the grace period.
    Parking is ALL DAY SATURDAY found here (https://finkleandgreen.co.uk/contact/) point about being before 5 is irrelevant, invitation to treat signs are still in place despite being void for impossibility. Contracts with impossible terms aren’t recognized in law.
    Witness Statement dated 2016 & isn’t evidence of the boundary of the site enforcement “land to the North of side of…” is too vague, there’s also no evidence of authority in 2019 or continuing into perpetuity

    In this case the driver seemed to agree to the ToS but couldn’t, the closure of restaurant means reg can’t be verified then left


    Does this look better than my previous one?

    I have linked the photo here https://imgur.com/gC5dPL3

    which seems to mention 36 months and then ongoing does this negate my points about being signed in 2016 and not showing any evidence of authority in 2019?

    Thanks.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Jun 19, 2:04 AM
    • 76,396 Posts
    • 89,714 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I have linked the photo here https://imgur.com/gC5dPL3

    which seems to mention 36 months and then ongoing does this negate my points about being signed in 2016 and not showing any evidence of authority in 2019?
    Yes, I missed that first time, so remove this phrase:
    there’s also no evidence of authority in 2019 or continuing into perpetuity
    ...and POPLA will not understand 'TOS' so make it clearer that the signs do invite parking.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Muzzzz
    • By Muzzzz 14th Jun 19, 8:41 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Muzzzz
    Not “permit holders only” permit & restaurant patrons. https://www.britishparking.co.uk/News/good-car-parking-practice-includes-grace-periods)Kelvin Reynolds, BPA Director “there’s a difference between grace periods & observation periods & good practice allows for this. An observation period is the time when an officer should be able to determine the motorist intentions once in the car park. There must be sufficient time for the motorist to park their car, observe signs, decide whether to comply with the conditions, either drive away or pay for a ticket” “No time limit is specified, it might take 1 person 5 minutes, another person 10 minutes depending on factors, not limited to disability.” NO TIME LIMIT SPECIFIED, for a potential restaurant patron to enter site, park, observe signs, walk to restaurant, find it closed, walk back to car, enter the car/assist any passengers & drive to the exit in under 5 minutes is ludicrous, the operator is not allowing realistic time for drivers to do all of this & then leave, they have failed to uphold a fair observation period.
    Gemma referred wrongly to BPA CoP 13.1 “If a driver is parking without your permission” this wasn’t without permission (see signs) the correct clause 13.2 “If the parking location is one where parking is normally permitted” the operator has failed to uphold the grace period.
    Parking ALL DAY SATURDAY here (https://finkleandgreen.co.uk/contact/) point about being before 5 is irrelevant, invitation to treat signs are still in place despite being void for impossibility. Impossible contract has terms impossible to fulfil. Such contract wouldn’t be considered legally binding & be void under contract law.
    Witness Statement isn’t evidence of the boundary of the site enforcement “land to the north of side of…” is too vague.

    In this case the driver seemed to agree to the conditions signposted (Restaurant patrons invited to park) but couldn’t, the closure of restaurant means reg can’t be verified & then left


    Here is what I hope to be my final draft, any comments? Then I can send it away!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Jun 19, 12:44 AM
    • 76,396 Posts
    • 89,714 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I'd remove this as POPLA don't understand it and it detracts from the words before:
    despite being void for impossibility. Impossible contract has terms impossible to fulfil. Such contract wouldn’t be considered legally binding & be void under contract law.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Muzzzz
    • By Muzzzz 15th Jun 19, 10:40 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Muzzzz
    No problem, would you say it looks good to send once that is removed?
    • Muzzzz
    • By Muzzzz 17th Jun 19, 9:37 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Muzzzz
    Hi all, quick update, I have posted my comments to POPLA. As advised by CM I removed this "Impossible contract has terms impossible to fulfil. Such contract wouldn’t be considered legally binding & be void under contract law."

    So fingers crossed and now we wait.
    • Muzzzz
    • By Muzzzz 24th Jul 19, 8:45 AM
    • 66 Posts
    • 34 Thanks
    Muzzzz
    Hi all, the wait is over!

    My decision came back successful, they said they did not need to assess my other appeal points as the operator failed to allow 10 minutes for the driver to observe the terms. Interesting that this was the point that POPLA agreed with as both NPS and the BPA tried to argue that I (we) were wrong on that point and that the operator had allowed sufficient time, even going as far as to claim that Mr. Clarke (who wrote the current CoP apparently) agreed with NPS and that we were wrong. Shows that it's a completely biased system were the BPA will defend the operators who are paying them even when they are wrong and breaking the law.

    Thanks everyone who assisted with this! I owe you all a beer
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