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  • FIRST POST
    • adamaxeman
    • By adamaxeman 25th Apr 19, 2:19 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 2Thanks
    adamaxeman
    Private PCN from PESS (Parking Enforcement & Security Services)
    • #1
    • 25th Apr 19, 2:19 PM
    Private PCN from PESS (Parking Enforcement & Security Services) 25th Apr 19 at 2:19 PM
    Hi Everyone,

    I am hoping someone can help me with a PCN I received from PESS - company information on the attached picture of the ticket.

    I would usually pay if I knew it was private land, but I honestly thought I was parking at the back of a charity shop I was dropping a bag of bits off to, I ended up staying for 16 minutes as I was looking through and buying more stuff in the charity shop - another story altogether...

    My justification for wanting to object is that I feel the signage wasn't adequate, it is a black and white sign that is right next to an ADT sign so I simply didn't notice it. That and the fact I've parked here many times going back years when I've been popping into the same place and never had an issue.

    Any advice would be super appreciated!

    I am hoping I can post the images of the ticket and signs after posting this thread.

    Thank you
Page 1
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 25th Apr 19, 2:27 PM
    • 3,755 Posts
    • 4,719 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    • #2
    • 25th Apr 19, 2:27 PM
    • #2
    • 25th Apr 19, 2:27 PM
    england / wales or other location
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • adamaxeman
    • By adamaxeman 25th Apr 19, 2:52 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    adamaxeman
    • #3
    • 25th Apr 19, 2:52 PM
    • #3
    • 25th Apr 19, 2:52 PM
    Apologies, Surbiton in Surrey - England.

    Contravention - 10-Parking Land without Valid Permit

    Location St Andrews Road.
    • twhitehousescat
    • By twhitehousescat 25th Apr 19, 2:58 PM
    • 3,755 Posts
    • 4,719 Thanks
    twhitehousescat
    • #4
    • 25th Apr 19, 2:58 PM
    • #4
    • 25th Apr 19, 2:58 PM
    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=4816822
    Time pretending I was asleep whilst under his desk , has given me insight to this sordid world
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Apr 19, 9:49 PM
    • 72,085 Posts
    • 84,433 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 26th Apr 19, 9:49 PM
    • #5
    • 26th Apr 19, 9:49 PM
    PESS are just another IPC firm aren't they? No POPLA then, no real 'appeal' possible. Same advice as any thread you find when you search for:

    IPC IAS kangaroo court

    Come back if they try a small claim but no worries, PESS are not known for them and I doubt they use the right POFA deadlines to hold the registered keeper liable.

    I seem to recall they are so small they even get PCS to send their letters for them. Not a firm to pay or worry about - please read any other IPC thread!

    No paying them please...obviously not.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • adamaxeman
    • By adamaxeman 29th Apr 19, 9:26 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    adamaxeman
    • #6
    • 29th Apr 19, 9:26 PM
    • #6
    • 29th Apr 19, 9:26 PM
    Hi Coupon Mad,

    Thanks for the advice, I have sent the template that pops up under that search through to PESS. I won't send any payment and will update if and when they come back to me.

    Thank you!
    • adamaxeman
    • By adamaxeman 1st May 19, 2:45 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    adamaxeman
    • #7
    • 1st May 19, 2:45 PM
    Response back from PESS (PCS)
    • #7
    • 1st May 19, 2:45 PM
    Hi All,

    I have received a response back from PESS, which seems to be PCS.

    They included photographic evidence.

    Thank you

    --------


    =


    =


    Thank you for your appeal regarding the above Parking Charge Notice (PCN).

    I have carefully reviewed the case and considered the points that you raised in conjunction with the facts and evidence available to me. On this occasion, your appeal has been rejected as I am satisfied that this PCN was issued correctly. I have explained the reasoning behind this decision in more detail below.

    My findings

    St. Andrews Road is private land and is subject to a parking management scheme put in place by the operator at the landowner’s request. There are specific terms and conditions in place as part of this scheme, which are displayed on the signs in place at the site. These signs have been installed in clear and prominent positions.

    At this location, parking is only permitted for valid permit holders with their permit on display.

    On 25/04/2019, the vehicle was parked without a valid permit on display. This was a breach of the terms and conditions and the PCN was correctly and legitimately issued as a result. Please find the photographic evidence attached, as requested.

    Ultimately, it is the responsibility of the motorist to ensure that they seek out, read and comply with the terms and conditions of parking that are in place. By parking on site in breach of these terms and conditions, it has been agreed that the charge detailed on the signs will be paid.

    I appreciate that this may not be the desired outcome, however, you have now reached the end of our internal appeal process. The three options available are listed below:

    Your options

    1) Pay the PCN at the reduced amount of 60.00 by 15/05/2019. After this time the opportunity to pay at the reduced amount will no longer be available and the amount outstanding will rise to the full amount of 100.00. This will need to be paid by 29/05/2019. Payment can be made online or by phone. Go to or phone 0208 528 4122. You can find full details of how to pay on the PCN issued to the vehicle and/or on the letter(s) sent, if applicable.

    2) Make an appeal to POPLA (the Independent Appeals Service) online at using the verification code at the top of this response. The only grounds for making an appeal are stated on the website and the appeal must be received by POPLA within 28 days of the date of this response. If you are unable to submit your appeal online, we can provide you with a form to submit your appeal by post.

    If you appeal to POPLA, we will suspend recovery activity on the PCN. The charge will not increase further until the appeal outcome has been determined. Please note that if you opt to appeal to POPLA and the appeal is unsuccessful you will only be able to settle the PCN at the full amount. The opportunity to pay at the reduced amount will no longer be available.

    If you choose to pay the PCN you will not be able to appeal to POPLA.

    3) If you do not make payment or submit an appeal to POPLA within the relevant timeframe, the outstanding PCN may be passed to an appointed debt collection agency for further action. All costs associated with this process will be added to the full PCN amount.

    More Information

    By law we are also required to inform you that Ombudsman Services provides an alternative dispute resolution service that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, we have not chosen to participate in their alternative dispute resolution service. As such, should you wish to appeal then you must do so to POPLA, as explained above.

    Kind Regards
    Last edited by adamaxeman; 06-05-2019 at 12:37 AM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st May 19, 3:37 PM
    • 72,085 Posts
    • 84,433 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 1st May 19, 3:37 PM
    • #8
    • 1st May 19, 3:37 PM
    PESS, which seems to be PCS.
    They are not.

    PCS is a debt collector (Debt Recovery Plus) who do back office 'work' for PESS (parking firm who can't seem to manage letters themselves!).

    Clearly you will now read about POPLA in the NEWBIES thread & show us yours!
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 1st May 19, 4:19 PM
    • 14,738 Posts
    • 16,934 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #9
    • 1st May 19, 4:19 PM
    • #9
    • 1st May 19, 4:19 PM
    adamaxeman, you would be wise to remove identifying information from your most recent post. Things like PoPla code and PCN number uniquely identify you.

    The parking companies trawl this forum just waiting for people to trip themselves up and can try and use your posts against you.
    Last edited by KeithP; 01-05-2019 at 6:55 PM.
    .
    • adamaxeman
    • By adamaxeman 14th May 19, 3:56 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    adamaxeman
    Hi KeithP, thanks for the heads up - I have removed now.

    I have read the thread about POPLA appeals and I am unsure whether to appeal on the grounds of inadequate signage (the sign isn't what I would say is prominent and the 100 fine is in very small writing).

    Or whether I should appeal on the grounds that they do not have proof I was the driver.

    I have the templates for both and feel I am able to put together a strong defence, but if anyone could give any pointers on which route would be more successful, I would be really grateful.

    Thank you.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th May 19, 4:34 PM
    • 23,393 Posts
    • 37,263 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Hi KeithP, thanks for the heads up - I have removed now.

    I have read the thread about POPLA appeals and I am unsure whether to appeal on the grounds of inadequate signage (the sign isn't what I would say is prominent and the 100 fine is in very small writing).

    Or whether I should appeal on the grounds that they do not have proof I was the driver.

    I have the templates for both and feel I am able to put together a strong defence, but if anyone could give any pointers on which route would be more successful, I would be really grateful.

    Thank you.
    Originally posted by adamaxeman
    Signage is one of your key POPLA appeal points.

    Proof of who the driver was isn’t necessary if they have met the strict requirements of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4) which will enable them to transfer liability to the keeper. Does the NtK you’ve received meet those essential requirements?
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th May 19, 5:16 PM
    • 13,041 Posts
    • 13,364 Thanks
    The Deep
    Nine times out of ten these tickets are scams and will fail in court so complain to your MP.

    Parliament is well aware of the MO of these private parking companies, and on 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these shysters. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, persistent offenders denied access to the DVLA database and unable to operate.

    Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers, but until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 14th May 19, 6:19 PM
    • 6,546 Posts
    • 8,668 Thanks
    waamo
    Appeal on multiple grounds. Make life difficult for them. If in doubt appeal on the point.

    It is their job to prove their case. The burden of proof lies with them, not you. Innocent until proven guilty.

    Asset the signage is too small. If it isn't then they can prove it. Assert the have no landowner contract. If they have one they can prove it. You get the idea.

    If you can add meat to the bones so much the better. For example if you can show how they fail at POFA you will walk it.
    This space for hire.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th May 19, 8:17 PM
    • 72,085 Posts
    • 84,433 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You could always (in my experience over the years) tell if PCS were trying to issue a compliant NTK as they used to be blue, and headed Notice to Keeper, with the right words abut the keeper being liable.

    In non-POFA cases it used to be a different colour font notice (headed up Notice to Owner), and just a threat of debt collectors where the POFA words were meant to be.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • adamaxeman
    • By adamaxeman 15th May 19, 8:33 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    adamaxeman
    Thank you everyone, this is all noted and really appreciated. Although I am in two minds about appealing to POPLA because of losing the 60 repayment offer, I feel these people are ripping people off and I'm fighting a good and just cause, so I'm going to go for it.

    Here is my reasoning I am going to put into the appeal box on the POPLA site, I haven't posted it yet so if anyone can see any obvious flaws, please let me know.

    Thanks again!

    "My grounds for appeal against this PCN are based on three reasons.

    1 - inadequate signage.

    I was parking around the back of a charity shop for which I was dropping off a donation, I do not have a receipt to prove this as you are not issued with a receipt when making a donation.

    There is no prominent signage when you pull into the area, and the signage they do have is next to CCTV / Security warnings and are not clear at all. The warning of 100 fine is also in very small font.

    Please see attached for images of the signage, which is in an extremely small font and placed next to signage regarding CCTV. I was not able to see the wording on the signage at any point whilst parking and given I had used the same location to drop donations off previously, I didn't think I was in risk of infringing a contract.

    2 - They have no landowner contract allowing them to enforce parking services in this area.

    Without a landowner contract, they have no legal authority to issue a PCN.

    3 - The signage states "parking within marked bays only".

    As you can see from the attached images, there are no marked bays in the area I parked, which led me to believe I was not parking in a restricted area. "
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th May 19, 5:39 PM
    • 72,085 Posts
    • 84,433 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Your POPLA appeal should be so long it would never fit in the appeal box.

    DO NOT do such a brief POPLA appeal, this is nothing like the examples in the NEWBIES thread post #3, where it tells you how to submit a POPLA appeal and NOT by filling in just 2000 characters in some silly little POPLA appeal box.

    Earlier you said this, so why did you then not use the templates?
    I have read the thread about POPLA appeals and I am unsure whether to appeal on the grounds of inadequate signage (the sign isn't what I would say is prominent and the 100 fine is in very small writing).
    And why not this point? Are you saying the PCS NTK was fully compliant to the letter?
    Or whether I should appeal on the grounds that they do not have proof I was the driver.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Redx
    • By Redx 15th May 19, 5:41 PM
    • 22,461 Posts
    • 28,477 Thanks
    Redx
    the appeal is UPLOADED as a final pdf after choosing OTHER on the popla site


    nobody in their right mind fills in their various options and appeal box at popla
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • adamaxeman
    • By adamaxeman 17th May 19, 1:37 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    adamaxeman
    Thanks for the advice all, I'm going to pay the fine as I don't have confidence in my ability to put together a decent enough appeal and I'd rather pay 60 than 100.

    Thanks again.
    • Castle
    • By Castle 17th May 19, 2:04 PM
    • 2,260 Posts
    • 3,070 Thanks
    Castle
    Thanks for the advice all, I'm going to pay the fine as I don't have confidence in my ability to put together a decent enough appeal and I'd rather pay 60 than 100.

    Thanks again.
    Originally posted by adamaxeman
    Based on their reply in post no 7 you're too late to pay the 60.00 as they wanted it by the 15th of May.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 17th May 19, 2:15 PM
    • 23,393 Posts
    • 37,263 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Based on their reply in post no 7 you're too late to pay the 60.00 as they wanted it by the 15th of May.
    Originally posted by Castle
    If Castle is correct (and I have no reason to doubt), you’ll be in the worst of all positions.

    You will have paid them 60, but they won’t be happy with that as you’ve missed their deadline, they will continue to pursue you mercilessly for the other 40, and you having already paid them 60, will have admitted culpability. That will be an extremely easy one for them to convince a Judge that you owe them not only 40 more, but also the 25 court filing fee, the 25 court hearing fee and the 50 solicitor fee (which every PPC adds to its claims).

    This could potentially cost you 200.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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