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    • Frozen_up_north
    • By Frozen_up_north 16th Apr 19, 1:13 PM
    • 1,840 Posts
    • 938 Thanks
    Frozen_up_north
    Run Spybot Anti-Beacon to fix the problem:

    https://www.safer-networking.org/products/spybot-anti-beacon/
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 16th Apr 19, 2:05 PM
    • 6,749 Posts
    • 6,666 Thanks
    DoaM
    Don't worry - the school holidays should be over soon.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 16th Apr 19, 4:22 PM
    • 4,624 Posts
    • 3,999 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    Either you've mis-read (the CIA allegedly responded to the comment - they didn't make the original comment), or you're commenting on the fact that the word Intelligence in their name looks odd in their response. (Hard to tell if it's a capital or small letter I).

    Which is it? The latter I hope, else the joke's on you.
    Originally posted by DoaM
    Difficult to see that the quote is from someone else and CIA comment on it - I can see it now. Not being a Twitterer, if that is the word, don't know how it works! Thanks for pointing it out. I'll crawl back under my rock now.
    • Takmon
    • By Takmon 16th Apr 19, 4:28 PM
    • 417 Posts
    • 371 Thanks
    Takmon
    Is that right? I didn't realise that. I'm going to do a bit of research on that myself!
    Originally posted by gabriel73195
    You must be joking, you can't really believe that?. Imagine how much battery would be used up if a phone was constantly streaming all audio from the microphone. Plus all those people who have limited data on their contracts would use it all up and not know where it's gone.

    People with even a basic understanding of technology (so you will need someone to help you ) can check these things very easily and it would be posted everywhere online with evidence if it was true.
    • Takmon
    • By Takmon 16th Apr 19, 4:33 PM
    • 417 Posts
    • 371 Thanks
    Takmon
    Difficult to see that the quote is from someone else and CIA comment on it - I can see it now. Not being a Twitterer, if that is the word, don't know how it works! Thanks for pointing it out. I'll crawl back under my rock now.
    Originally posted by Le_Kirk
    It's from Facebook not Twitter if your interested
    • poppasmurf_bewdley
    • By poppasmurf_bewdley 16th Apr 19, 4:38 PM
    • 5,442 Posts
    • 5,550 Thanks
    poppasmurf_bewdley
    Can you imagine the amount of storage that would be needed if Microsoft were to record every key stroke on every computer using Windows?

    I doubt Bill Gates would be able to afford it.
    "There are not enough superlatives in the English language to describe a 'Princess Coronation' locomotive in full cry. We shall never see their like again". O S Nock
    • John Gray
    • By John Gray 16th Apr 19, 5:21 PM
    • 5,415 Posts
    • 3,207 Thanks
    John Gray
    Very slightly paraphrasing a line from Hamlet:

    "The laddie doth protest too much, methinks."
    • John Gray
    • By John Gray 16th Apr 19, 5:27 PM
    • 5,415 Posts
    • 3,207 Thanks
    John Gray
    With the advent of enhanced disk technology, all the words ever uttered or written in the history of the universe can be stored on the head of a pin.

    That's reductio ad absurdum for you!
    • -taff
    • By -taff 16th Apr 19, 5:42 PM
    • 9,919 Posts
    • 12,858 Thanks
    -taff
    ((Hard to tell if it's a capital or small letter I).Which is it? The latter I hope, else the joke's on you.
    Originally posted by DoaM

    small letter i, it's a bit pixellated...
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 16th Apr 19, 6:56 PM
    • 11,758 Posts
    • 13,080 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    Three threads merged under the general theme of "is technology being used to spy on us"?

    The specifics of the three original questions, are in my opinion...

    - no - Windows is not spying.

    - no - digital assistants are not spying (however it is in the nature of how they work that sample conversations will be uploaded and potentially examined for the purpose of product development and that will be noted in the Ts & Cs).

    - yes, undoubtedly some people, somewhere, will be using cameras unlawfully/immorally to spy on other people.


    This isn't so much a question of storage or comms capacity but of the computing and human resources required for analysis and what the purpose of such analysis would be. We live in an era in which a significant proportion of western societies (possibly a majority) are involved in complaining about the Powers That Be in some way at some time. It is not news that people are doing that, it is entirely healthy and it is so widespread that it is of no value to Government to know the detail (other than as a giant focus group).
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 16-04-2019 at 7:03 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • RumRat
    • By RumRat 16th Apr 19, 7:54 PM
    • 3,153 Posts
    • 1,931 Thanks
    RumRat
    So, what's your conclusion? You already stated that you would not be purchasing an Amazon echo or Google home. You then go on to believe everything you read (even quoting a Daily Mail article, that's a real low point!) about computers etc.
    Question is, why are you still using one? Do, you have a mobile phone.....If so, you are really screwed.....and why?
    Drinking Rum before 10am makes you
    A PIRATE
    Not an Alcoholic...!
    • debitcardmayhem
    • By debitcardmayhem 16th Apr 19, 9:38 PM
    • 8,983 Posts
    • 6,767 Thanks
    debitcardmayhem
    Has no one heard of the Billy Goats Gruff?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Billy_Goats_Gruff
    Still grumpy, and No, Cloudflare I am NOT a robot
    • VoucherMan
    • By VoucherMan 17th Apr 19, 6:06 AM
    • 2,578 Posts
    • 5,075 Thanks
    VoucherMan
    Have you any idea how much storage that would take?
    Originally posted by droopsnoot

    They've got it covered. https://www.wired.com/2012/03/ff-nsadatacenter/


    Storing it is one thing. Which poor sod has to go through the stuff.
    • Takmon
    • By Takmon 17th Apr 19, 7:52 AM
    • 417 Posts
    • 371 Thanks
    Takmon
    Respectfully what you're putting forward is simply just not true. I know of a scientific researcher who analyzed the contents that were being uploaded from a smart TV and he found this recorded the entire conversation of him and his family and it was being uploaded to the mother ship and this was years ago.
    We are always a few steps from having bugs in our homes whether through accident or design!
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5661955/Is-Alexa-spying-Security-researchers-discover-let-listen-say.html

    There are even names for the programs that actually will, can and do turn your smart tv into a bug it's even got a name
    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/03/09/if-you-have-a-smart-tv-take-a-closer-look-at-your-privacy-settings.html
    "Today’s WikiLeaks release revealed that Samsung smart TV owners are particularly vulnerable to spying. Newly published documents detail a program called “Weeping Angel, ” an attack designed by the CIA and United Kingdom’s MI5/BTSS that makes Samsung smart TVs look like they’re turned off when, in fact, they’re not."
    Originally posted by gabriel73195
    I haven't read any of the links but that proves exactly the point i was making. If there is any kind of security flaw in a consumer device then people will look into it and people will find it.

    But none of that shows that Amazon Echo or Google Home record all conversations as you said.

    This news article is stunning and to my mind it confirms that at the very least far far more information is sent to Amazon than anybody ever possibly imagines. The information sent back includes "Sexual assault" so how can "Sexual Assault" be triggered with "Hello Echo" or whatever the command is:

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/04/11/tech/amazon-alexa-listening/
    Originally posted by gabriel73195
    Amazon make it pretty clear that the device starts recording after the wake word and these recordings are stored and the user can access and delete them very easily (none of this is kept secret).

    Many many people have looked into this and there is no recording done until the wake word is said. But once it is said then it will start recording to try and understand what command you want.

    If it started recording before this then it certainly would have been all over the internet by now.

    But already the phones do send the voice commands back to the central servers after "key words" which are "Hello Google" or whatever it is for Siri, therefore the same way that there are triggers used in the collection of data by the NSA there would also be "triggers" for words that are linked to conversations of interest so your point is moot if you see what I'm saying. Battery life would be inconsequential because the data sent up would only be data that was being searched for.
    Originally posted by gabriel73195
    That would require the NSA to work with the software developers to implement this and it certainly isn't something they could secretly add in because it would need to be a part of the device operating system. Many people are involved in the development of software so lots of people would need to agree to this and agree to keep it secret. It would be a disaster waiting to happen because sooner or later this would come into public knowledge because so many people would have to be complicit.
    • Cornucopia
    • By Cornucopia 17th Apr 19, 8:34 PM
    • 11,758 Posts
    • 13,080 Thanks
    Cornucopia
    As an IT industry insider, I've seen no evidence that would support these kinds of claims over my three-decade career.

    The most obvious question is: why? What would be the objective of mass-surveillance? The vast, vast majority of such material would be completely mundane from an intelligence POV, and anyone really "bad" would already be using anti-surveillance technology and techniques.

    Aside from that, I see a number of points above that are at odds with the limitations of technology, in no particular order:-

    1. Surveillance of Angela Merkel in no way supports surveillance of millions of individual citizens - the two exercises are of a completely different level of technical and logistical challenge.

    2. Storage of data is not (any longer) the issue. The issue is analysis effort. In this context, the lack of a stated aim is somewhat convenient because if we don't know the aim, then we do not know whether the analysis effort is merely implausible or totally impossible.

    3. One piece of factual espionage does not mean that every other theory is automatically correct, and Watergate was a very long while ago.

    4. From a philosophical POV, if this very powerful conglomerate existed why would it even permit casual discussion of its alleged activities in forums like this?
    Last edited by Cornucopia; 17-04-2019 at 8:48 PM.
    I'm a Board Guide on the Phones & TV, Techie Stuff, In My Home,
    The Money Savers Arms and Food Shopping boards. I'm a volunteer to help the boards run smoothly, and I can move and merge threads there. Any views (especially those on the UK TV Licence) are mine and not the official line of moneysavingexpert.com.

    Board guides are not moderators. If you spot an inappropriate or illegal post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com
    • VoucherMan
    • By VoucherMan 18th Apr 19, 5:46 AM
    • 2,578 Posts
    • 5,075 Thanks
    VoucherMan
    Thanks VoucherMan, that's a brilliant link. There's one word that comes to my mind when I read that which I read with interest. That links is now going to be posted to my main community. (Thanks) The word that comes to mind is "extremely sinister"
    Originally posted by gabriel73195

    If you liked that one,try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center , which is where I got the link from. There's a whole series of links to global surveillance related topics.
    Wikipedia can be a veritable wet dream for conspiracy theorists, not just a useful source of information.
    • that
    • By that 18th Apr 19, 6:59 AM
    • 964 Posts
    • 556 Thanks
    that
    gabriel73195, another item to look into is 'email archiving' solutions. It is a method to efficiently store emails. often uses Data Deduplication technology to save space, and only stores one email no matter how many times it is passed around

    it preserve chain-of-custody with full audit trails, an integrated search engine, and security logs to mitigate risk, or future legal queries.Even if you delete your email, it will still stay on record, and it is unobtrusive -runs silently in the background
    • Takmon
    • By Takmon 18th Apr 19, 8:23 AM
    • 417 Posts
    • 371 Thanks
    Takmon
    Hmm it might be true that they don't genuinely do that. I think I'm really trying to put the case across of how easy it potentially is and how powerful the military industrial complex is that if they wanted to then they could probably do it. At the end of the day there's a name for the program that the UK and US clandestine services have developed in order to switch on remotely these essential bugs? Where does this come from Takmon?

    Let me ask you something honestly. Do you think that it's false that the USA actually recorded every single conversation that Mrs Merkel had on her phone for a period of time? This is the leader of the 3rd largest economy in the world at the time and a favoured Ally with more military bases hosted in Germany than in the UK. If I was on here saying that they probably are doing that nobody would have believed it was possible.
    Do you believe that what was leaked by Edward Snowden was true? My point is to say that being able to use these devices to listen remotely at will is a very very real and likely possibility.
    Originally posted by gabriel73195
    Targeting specific individuals and monitoring them certainly does happen and this has always historically been done by bugging the specific devices that they use.

    If there was a backdoor that allowed these devices to be remotely monitored at will that makes them very insecure because this could be exploited by other countries and individuals across the world.
    Do you think the US government would allow people who work for them have devices in their home and devices they carry around that can be remotely monitored at will without them knowing?

    I'm not sure if they listen to everything as I can't possibly know but look at the history of Google does anbyody remember the data they scooped up in their picture cars a few years ago. I can find the link if anybody is interested but the point is they proactively broke the law and proactively inserted divices in their cars that sniffed networks they were not allowed to sniff. They do this brazenly knowing they are breaking the law so it's the ethos of these big corporations that I think people don't really understand.
    Originally posted by gabriel73195
    Google simply drove around and recorded all network traffic that being broadcast, this allowed them to create a MAP of Wi-Fi hotspots among other things.

    This information is something that anyone walking past your house can access so it's not private and if people are not using security on their Wi-Fi networks then that is their own fault.
    Google simply got a few seconds of information from each Wi-Fi network as they drove past. If people had the appropriate security then it would just be nonsense and nothing could be done with it.

    If someone was accessing inputting sensitive information on an unsecured wireless network they might as well be shouting it out their window. But then if someone was walking down the street with a voice recorder and happened to record what they were shouting they obviously shouldn't get in trouble for that.

    Google is creating a massive AI program for the CIA, this is quite well known so compared to all that's gone before I don't think "overeaching" listening to peoples conversations and filtering it automatically by robots in the same way they do it with everybodies emails will be of moral concern to their culture.
    Originally posted by gabriel73195
    I don't see any problem with them analysing information that people post in the public domain. But for the reasons that i stated above having a backdoor in every device poses a big security risk for them.

    Summary: If every single bit of data ever sent through Skype was permanently stored by the NSA what makes you think that the same couldn't or wouldn't happen to Voice data that's collected? That's what I keep coming back to.
    Originally posted by gabriel73195
    I've just read this article explaining how it was done:

    https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/12/newly-published-nsa-documents-show-agency-could-grab-all-skype-traffic/

    skype has a "weakness" in that it uses peer to peer to transmit data:

    Because Skype has no central servers, the guide explained, for multiparty calls, “Skype creates a mesh-network, where users are connected together through multiple peer-to-peer links. Instant Messages sent to this group of meshed participants can be routed through any participant.” If any participant in a chat was monitored, the NSA could capture all of the IM traffic in the shared chat.
    Originally posted by gabriel73195
    So they had to actively target someone to make sure the data was routed through them so they could monitor and information they sent. If someone wasn't being actively monitored the data would be routed through a random network of computers and they wouldn't intercept it.

    So this was targeted to certain individuals and they certainly didn't capture everything from every user, what is your source for this?
    • RumRat
    • By RumRat 18th Apr 19, 9:00 AM
    • 3,153 Posts
    • 1,931 Thanks
    RumRat
    People who frequent conspiracy forums/communities are never going to be convinced by any sensible argument.
    How many have thrown away their mobiles/PC/Tablet, ditched their email account, stopped driving their car, stopped frequenting city centres, etc etc, since being informed of the theories??? Probably none, as most don't care and the rest look at it pragmatically.

    Life is too short, the Genie is well and truly out of the box now, never to be put back in...
    Drinking Rum before 10am makes you
    A PIRATE
    Not an Alcoholic...!
    • AndyPix
    • By AndyPix 18th Apr 19, 10:50 AM
    • 4,211 Posts
    • 3,682 Thanks
    AndyPix
    Does Windows have a setting that causes every single word you type to be sent to Microsoft servers?.
    Originally posted by gabriel73195

    No . Categorically not .... And neither do any of the alexa type things


    This is easily proved by the use of wireshark
    Running with scissors since 1978
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