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    • MSE Naomi
    • By MSE Naomi 15th Apr 19, 8:29 AM
    • 202Posts
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    MSE Naomi
    TSB launches refund guarantee for fraud victims - MSE News
    • #1
    • 15th Apr 19, 8:29 AM
    TSB launches refund guarantee for fraud victims - MSE News 15th Apr 19 at 8:29 AM
    TSB has promised to refund customers who lose money through any type of fraud under its Fraud Refund Guarantee...
    Read the full story:
    'TSB launches refund guarantee for fraud victims'

    Click reply below to discuss. If you havenít already, join the forum to reply.
Page 2
    • Terry Towelling
    • By Terry Towelling 15th Apr 19, 8:06 PM
    • 1,201 Posts
    • 970 Thanks
    Terry Towelling
    Problem with that is, before they've taken you through security they don't know who you are and as far as they're concerned they could be giving "your" password to a total random.
    Originally posted by JuicyJesus
    Fair point - back to the drawing board.

    That said, it is not the 'total random' that we have to guard against; it is the person with criminal intent who happens to be on the genuine account holder's landline or in possession of their mobile phone at the time of an incoming call from their bank - which I accept could happen.

    If that criminal gets hold of your password they could then pose as your bank, call you up and pass your security. The fact that they could pass your security wouldn't make any given fraud more likely than if your security step didn't exist, but it might make you drop your guard completely and share your private details more openly - and that would be a very bad thing.
    • robatwork
    • By robatwork 15th Apr 19, 8:34 PM
    • 5,042 Posts
    • 5,805 Thanks
    robatwork
    All paid for out of your "for good" 2%
    • SnowTiger
    • By SnowTiger 15th Apr 19, 9:02 PM
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    • 2,655 Thanks
    SnowTiger
    So are they just complying with the voluntary code early?
    Originally posted by nic_c
    Looks like it. And the MSE article seems to confirm that:

    The scheme closely mirro[r]s a new voluntary code, which takes effect in May and has been signed by other major banks, and also means victims of APP scams will be refunded unless they were grossly negligent.
    Will I get a refund after sending £150 by bank transfer to a seller on Gumtree for an iPhone X that doesn't turn up?

    What if I pay £50,000 to a builder via bank transfer who blow in on a trip to Las Vagas rather than building my kitchen extension?

    There's very little specific information from TSB about what they consider to be fraud.
    • Alexland
    • By Alexland 16th Apr 19, 12:41 AM
    • 4,903 Posts
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    Alexland
    Hasn't this already been done to death on all the other threads about TSB's rate reduction? I don't really see the need to replay it all on this one that's specifically about their fraud guarantee....
    Originally posted by eskbanker
    Problem is that TSB don't seem very good at keeping their promises. If you can't trust them to keep to the spirit of their rate assurance then can you trust them to honour this commitment in the event you are a victim of fraud? Or might they try wriggling out on a technicality?

    Alex
    • paragon909
    • By paragon909 16th Apr 19, 10:52 AM
    • 1,401 Posts
    • 1,396 Thanks
    paragon909
    Seems abit dodge. Someone could for example just use their debit card or setup a direct debit to another bank or without verified by visa and a different IP and browser such as tor browser and make payments, Then TSB say they will guarantee a refund if the customer reports fraud, It's like their asking to be frauded.
    • colsten
    • By colsten 16th Apr 19, 11:05 AM
    • 10,173 Posts
    • 9,336 Thanks
    colsten
    Seems abit dodge. Someone could for example just use their debit card or setup a direct debit to another bank or without verified by visa and a different IP and browser such as tor browser and make payments, Then TSB say they will guarantee a refund if the customer reports fraud, It's like their asking to be frauded.
    Originally posted by paragon909
    How would you set up a direct debit to another bank?

    How would you circumvent verified by VISA?

    Do you reckon the banks who signed up to the voluntary code have done so despite not knowing how to spot fraudulent transactions?
    • SnowTiger
    • By SnowTiger 16th Apr 19, 11:08 AM
    • 3,659 Posts
    • 2,655 Thanks
    SnowTiger
    Seems abit dodge. Someone could for example just use their debit card or setup a direct debit to another bank or without verified by visa and a different IP and browser such as tor browser and make payments, Then TSB say they will guarantee a refund if the customer reports fraud, It's like their asking to be frauded.
    Originally posted by paragon909
    So much wrong here.

    You can't use a debit card to set up a direct debit.

    Verified by Visa has nothing to do with direct debits.

    Direct debits are covered by the direct debit guarantee.

    And you can't set up a direct debit yourself anyway.

    I think you need to go back to fraud college.
    • eskbanker
    • By eskbanker 16th Apr 19, 11:27 AM
    • 10,107 Posts
    • 12,176 Thanks
    eskbanker
    Perhaps worth considering the sort of process TSB (and other banks from next month) will follow when assessing whether or not to reimburse customers after reported fraud, as this will presumably mirror the wording of the code (https://appcrmsteeringgroup.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/APP-scams-Steering-Group-Final-CRM-Code.pdf):

    Exceptions

    R2 (1) A Firm may choose not to reimburse a Customer if it can establish any of the following matters in (a) to (e). The assessment of whether these matters can be established should involve consideration of whether they would have had a material effect on preventing the APP scam that took place.
    (a) The Customer ignored Effective Warnings, given by a Firm in compliance with SF1(2), by failing to take appropriate action in response to such an Effective Warning given in any of the following:
    (i) when setting up a new payee;
    (ii) when amending an existing payee, and/ or
    (iii) immediately before making the payment
    (b) From [DATE TBC], the Customer did not take appropriate actions following a clear negative Confirmation of Payee result, where the Firm complied with SF1(3) or SF2(2), and those actions would, in the circumstances, have been effective in preventing the APP scam;

    (c) In all the circumstances at the time of the payment, in particular the characteristics of the Customer and the complexity and sophistication of the APP scam, the Customer made the payment without a reasonable basis for believing that:
    (i) the payee was the person the Customer was expecting to pay;
    (ii) the payment was for genuine goods or services; and/or
    (iii) the person or business with whom they transacted was legitimate.
    (d) Where the Customer is a Micro-enterprise or Charity, it did not follow its own internal procedures for approval of payments, and those procedures would have been effective in preventing the APP scam;

    (e) The Customer has been grossly negligent. For the avoidance of doubt the provisions of R2(1)(a)-(d) should not be taken to define gross negligence in this context.
    R2 (2) In assessing whether a Customer should be reimbursed or not, Firms should consider
    (a) whether the acts or omissions of Firms involved in trying to meet the Standards for Firms may have impeded the Customerís ability to avoid falling victim to the APP scam

    (b) whether, during the process of assessing whether the Customer should be reimbursed, the Customer has acted dishonestly or obstructively in a material respect
    Clearly the Confirmation of Payee initiative is a major preventative measure so it's a bit of a leap of faith for banks to sign up to the new code without CoP being in place (hence 'date TBC' above), but it seems likely to me that they'll introduce a range of other measures, such as the warnings referred to in R2(1)(a) above, via which they'll seek to limit their exposure....
    • Ali_fightingforwhatsright
    • By Ali_fightingforwhatsright 24th Apr 19, 1:14 PM
    • 1 Posts
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    Ali_fightingforwhatsright
    TSB offer customers no support
    Well Richard Meddings if full of it...my small business was targeted on Monday 8th April 2019. We were called from the Crime & Fraud prevention number of TSB (apparently the fraudsters can clone such numbers). They did not ask us for our information, they were already clearly in the TSB system and knew specific recent transaction information and details.
    They also text us from the TSB system before we gave ANY information.

    Our case mimics entirely that of another lady MSE featured who had £17,000 stolen. We were also duped into believing we were shutting down the fraudulent activity on our account by giving OTP. These people are professionals at what they do and as somebody not familiar with the inner workings of banks and the scale of this fraud epidemic, I really cannot see how I was supposed to identify the difference between TSB calling me and fraudsters calling me from the TSB number and texting me on their system!

    Today the bank have told us they will not be refunding our £22,000 and not only has our small business been catastrophically hit, the personal accounts also held with TSB of one of my business partners was also involved.
    12 families are involved with our company and we are just another number to TSB, they have broken promises to update us and get back to us time and again and now they have cut us lose.

    I have lodged a complaint and am going to the Financial Ombudsman. I see that the other lady whose story MSE shared got her money back, perhaps publicity is the way forward?

    How can they clam they want to give customers piece of mind when they refuse to refund us days after this recent announcement. They system did not flag massively out of character transactions on our account, or the setting up of new payees, the calls and texts came from within their system and they did not contact us regarding unusual activity, we discovered we couldn't access our accounts 5 days later!!
    Their system is clearly vulnerable and inadequate but they push all the blame onto customers who lack the information they require to be fully prepared for such scams, because the banks don't share what they know. My world is in tatters and so is the world of everyone involved with our company, TSB are a disgrace.
    Last edited by Ali_fightingforwhatsright; 24-04-2019 at 1:16 PM. Reason: Title unfinished
    • swindiff
    • By swindiff 24th Apr 19, 1:20 PM
    • 501 Posts
    • 256 Thanks
    swindiff
    Too late for you now unfortunately but the easiest thing to do is hang up the phone and call TSB yourself.
    I recently booked a hotel in Spain for 502 euros. Got an email from the Hotel asking me to click on a link to re-enter my credit card details as a problem with their system meant they did not receive the information required.
    All looked very official and indeed it was a genuine email from the hotel, but I would have never just taken it at face value. I dialled the hotel in Spain myself and gave the details over the phone.
    • Takmon
    • By Takmon 24th Apr 19, 1:30 PM
    • 416 Posts
    • 369 Thanks
    Takmon
    Well Richard Meddings if full of it...my small business was targeted on Monday 8th April 2019. We were called from the Crime & Fraud prevention number of TSB (apparently the fraudsters can clone such numbers). They did not ask us for our information, they were already clearly in the TSB system and knew specific recent transaction information and details.
    They also text us from the TSB system before we gave ANY information.
    Originally posted by Ali_fightingforwhatsright
    If they had access to the TSB systems they would be able to transfer money at will and would be targeting much bigger amounts of money and this would effect thousands of customers.

    If they really did have access to your transactions then you have somehow given out your online banking details through something like a phishing attempt or malicious software on your PC.

    Our case mimics entirely that of another lady MSE featured who had £17,000 stolen. We were also duped into believing we were shutting down the fraudulent activity on our account by giving OTP. These people are professionals at what they do and as somebody not familiar with the inner workings of banks and the scale of this fraud epidemic, I really cannot see how I was supposed to identify the difference between TSB calling me and fraudsters calling me from the TSB number and texting me on their system!

    Today the bank have told us they will not be refunding our £22,000 and not only has our small business been catastrophically hit, the personal accounts also held with TSB of one of my business partners was also involved.
    12 families are involved with our company and we are just another number to TSB, they have broken promises to update us and get back to us time and again and now they have cut us lose.

    I have lodged a complaint and am going to the Financial Ombudsman. I see that the other lady whose story MSE shared got her money back, perhaps publicity is the way forward?

    How can they clam they want to give customers piece of mind when they refuse to refund us days after this recent announcement. They system did not flag massively out of character transactions on our account, or the setting up of new payees, the calls and texts came from within their system and they did not contact us regarding unusual activity, we discovered we couldn't access our accounts 5 days later!!
    Their system is clearly vulnerable and inadequate but they push all the blame onto customers who lack the information they require to be fully prepared for such scams, because the banks don't share what they know. My world is in tatters and so is the world of everyone involved with our company, TSB are a disgrace.
    Originally posted by Ali_fightingforwhatsright
    I'm sure it even says in the OTP message not to share the information with anyone (even TSB).

    Also you need to use common sense when dealing with things like this. If TSB really did suspect fraud they would simply stop the transactions and they wouldn't be ringing you up and asking for information that is used to transfer money to other accounts.

    If you ever get an unexpected call just take a moment to stop and think before you do anything.

    I don't see why the bank should refund you when the mistakes made were entirely your fault.
    • SnowTiger
    • By SnowTiger 24th Apr 19, 2:06 PM
    • 3,659 Posts
    • 2,655 Thanks
    SnowTiger
    Well Richard Meddings if full of it...my small business was targeted on Monday 8th April 2019. We were called from the Crime & Fraud prevention number of TSB (apparently the fraudsters can clone such numbers). They did not ask us for our information...
    Originally posted by Ali_fightingforwhatsright
    Random person phones and asks you to transfer £22,000 to another account. You follow their instructions.

    https://www.tsb.co.uk/fraud-prevention-centre/fraud-refund-guarantee/:

    The guarantee doesnít apply if the fraud losses happened before Sunday 14 April 2019.
    I doubt it applies to business accounts anyway.
    • SnowTiger
    • By SnowTiger 24th Apr 19, 2:30 PM
    • 3,659 Posts
    • 2,655 Thanks
    SnowTiger
    I don't see why the bank should refund you when the mistakes made were entirely your fault.
    Originally posted by Takmon
    I agree. Ultimately other customers are funding this because it will be priced in to the cost of doing business.

    Confirmation of Payee should make this type of fraud more difficult.

    It was due to be implemented in July 2019, but the date keeps slipping. It's now pencilled in to begin some time next year.
    • karlie88
    • By karlie88 24th Apr 19, 3:33 PM
    • 8,782 Posts
    • 108,112 Thanks
    karlie88
    At the bottom of the OTP text from TSB it says:

    DO NOT SHARE THIS OTP WITH ANYONE.
    Official MSE canny forumite and HUKD VIP badge member
    • SnowTiger
    • By SnowTiger 24th Apr 19, 3:39 PM
    • 3,659 Posts
    • 2,655 Thanks
    SnowTiger
    At the bottom of the OTP text from TSB it says:

    DO NOT SHARE THIS OTP WITH ANYONE.
    Originally posted by karlie88
    No need for the customer to share the OTP if they're sat at the computer (or with their phone) and making the transfer.
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