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    • fishpond
    • By fishpond 15th Apr 19, 3:36 PM
    • 967 Posts
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    fishpond
    If a tenant defaults on the rent, I can give them a section 8 and an s21 to run side by side.
    Or I can give them an s8, which means they have made themselves homeless by not paying the rent, which afaik means that they will not be rehoused by the council.
    If I give them an s21 they should be rehoused as it is a no fault eviction.
    I am a LandLord,(under review) so there!
    • tom9980
    • By tom9980 15th Apr 19, 3:41 PM
    • 1,350 Posts
    • 3,961 Thanks
    tom9980
    If a tenant defaults on the rent, I can give them a section 8 and an s21 to run side by side.
    Or I can give them an s8, which means they have made themselves homeless by not paying the rent, which afaik means that they will not be rehoused by the council.
    If I give them an s21 they should be rehoused as it is a no fault eviction.
    Originally posted by fishpond
    Which means they will likely stay until the bitter end most likely destroying your property in the process. I was considering updating the bathroom and kitchen before letting again in the next month or two but i will either now sell or not do that work just in case the next tenant is bad.
    “In order to change, we must be sick and tired of being sick and tired.”
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 15th Apr 19, 4:01 PM
    • 21,785 Posts
    • 20,497 Thanks
    AdrianC
    So there will have to be a mechanism to manage that otherwise on the one hand rent rise acts as a de facto eviction if the tenant doesn't accept it (possibly because its very high for that reason) , or a tenant refusing to accept a rent rise can stay indefinitely and LL's can never raise rents.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    No, it's very simple.
    Let's say the tenancy says something along the lines of "rent can rise by RPI on each anniversary of moving in."

    There y'go, job jobbed. Rent goes up by inflation each year. If the tenant doesn't like it, the time to object was before they signed the tenancy. Hardly unfair, is it?

    Oh, wait. Most tenancies do precisely that anyway.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 15th Apr 19, 4:10 PM
    • 13,407 Posts
    • 15,817 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    No, it's very simple.
    Let's say the tenancy says something along the lines of "rent can rise by RPI on each anniversary of moving in."

    There y'go, job jobbed. Rent goes up by inflation each year. If the tenant doesn't like it, the time to object was before they signed the tenancy. Hardly unfair, is it?

    Oh, wait. Most tenancies do precisely that anyway.
    Originally posted by AdrianC

    "every complex problem has a simple solution - which is wrong"


    So now, there's a rent rise built in each year. Which there may not have been before.

    Many LL's here have posted to the effect they dont raise rents for years as they would like to keep good tenants rather than swap for a few extra quid.
    And if "inflation" (CPI?) isn't cutting it for the LL and she decides it needs to be more, or even rental inflation is outstripping general, what do they do? They cant raise the rent to market value any more as tenant will stay put.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 15th Apr 19, 4:15 PM
    • 6,727 Posts
    • 6,652 Thanks
    DoaM
    I blame Homes Under The Hammer for making people think BTL is a good thing for anyone.

    landlord wanting to love in the property
    Originally posted by SouthLondonUser


    Gotta love typos.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 15th Apr 19, 4:24 PM
    • 21,785 Posts
    • 20,497 Thanks
    AdrianC
    "every complex problem has a simple solution - which is wrong"

    So now, there's a rent rise built in each year. Which there may not have been before.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    But almost certainly was.


    Many LL's here have posted to the effect they dont raise rents for years as they would like to keep good tenants rather than swap for a few extra quid.
    Just as they choose not to now, even if it's in the tenancy. No change.



    And if "inflation" (CPI?) isn't cutting it for the LL and she decides it needs to be more, or even rental inflation is outstripping general, what do they do? They cant raise the rent to market value any more as tenant will stay put.
    C'est la vie. The tenancy is a contract. Rent can't be raised more than the tenancy states.

    Or are you suggesting they should be able to?
    • SouthLondonUser
    • By SouthLondonUser 15th Apr 19, 4:26 PM
    • 701 Posts
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    SouthLondonUser

    Many LL's here have posted to the effect they dont raise rents for years as they would like to keep good tenants rather than swap for a few extra quid.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Well, so what? No landlord has posted here admitting a revenge eviction because they wanted to kick out a tenant who dared complain about mould or a broken boiler or whatever, but, guess what?, it happens. Hardly surprising that the tenants and the landlords guilty of the dodgiest behaviour either lie about it or don't post about it here.



    And if "inflation" (CPI?) isn't cutting it for the LL and she decides it needs to be more, or even rental inflation is outstripping general, what do they do? They cant raise the rent to market value any more as tenant will stay put.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Well, a system like this would prevent rent increases by 10% every year, which has been known to happen in the past in certain parts of London. Oh, cry me a river for the poor landlords who will no longer be able to increase rent by 10% a year...
    • markin
    • By markin 15th Apr 19, 4:42 PM
    • 179 Posts
    • 228 Thanks
    markin
    as a renter I personally welcome the change. I rented 3 properties over a space of 2 years because the landlord 'changed their mind' or wanted to move in. One of the properties I had only been in for 4 months when they gave me notice to leave at the end of my 6 month tenancy because her daughter had baby and she wanted to rent the house to her instead.
    all the while It cost me significantly inmoving fees, time off work, reference and tenancy fees again etc. Plus I ended up having to take somewhere £100 more per month because that is all that was available at the time in the area I lived in. Looking back I should have refused go and waited for the council to help but I didn't want an evection etc to happen with my children.
    I understand some landlords have changes in circumstances that will make them need the house back, (a landlord I had 10 years ago had. bereavement and needed to sell to pay for things) but going on a years sabbatical abroad and renting the house out as a long long term let to then get to 10 months and 'want the house back' is not of benefit to anyone except the landlord.
    Originally posted by kimplus8



    Not sure i see your problem with having a 6 month tenancy and being asked to leave after 6 months.
    .................................................. ...........................................



    As i see it this is 100% the governments fault for failing to build council homes, And then handing out HB, Housing benefit should never been allowed to private landlords, but for 6 months if you lost your job, and anyone wanting a secure tenancy or needing HB should have been easily be able to get a council home.


    I constantly read that many young renters want to be mobile for work and that is where private landlords should come in with 6 month 12 months tenancys, They should not be used as a substitute for social housing.
    • dividendhero
    • By dividendhero 15th Apr 19, 5:17 PM
    • 605 Posts
    • 933 Thanks
    dividendhero
    Well, so what? No landlord has posted here admitting a revenge eviction because they wanted to kick out a tenant who dared complain about mould or a broken boiler or whatever, but, guess what?, it happens. .
    Originally posted by SouthLondonUser
    A moments thought would reveal that any LL would prefer to know about problems as soon as possible, so the line about being evicted due to reporting a faulty boiler is usually BS. As posted previously vast majority of "no fault" evictions are unpaid rent

    Hardly surprising that the tenants and the landlords guilty of the dodgiest behaviour either lie about it or don't post about it here.
    .
    Originally posted by SouthLondonUser
    I've been a LL for twenty years and know plenty of other LL's, I've never come across a case of a "revenge eviction". I've come across plenty of dodgy stuff from tenants - everything from threatening LL's, making false allegations through to false claims about serious illness
    • SouthLondonUser
    • By SouthLondonUser 15th Apr 19, 5:38 PM
    • 701 Posts
    • 281 Thanks
    SouthLondonUser
    A moments thought would reveal that any LL would prefer to know about problems as soon as possible, so the line about being evicted due to reporting a faulty boiler is usually BS. As posted previously vast majority of "no fault" evictions are unpaid rent
    Originally posted by dividendhero
    And you know this how? Because you have personally reviewed a statistically meaningful sample of cases?

    I could point you to many stories in the press but you'd probably say that tenants always lie.

    I could point you to some cases told here (I believe one in this very thread) but you could say the same.

    I've been a LL for twenty years and know plenty of other LL's, I've never come across a case of a "revenge eviction".
    Originally posted by dividendhero
    Totally, completely and utterly irrelevant.
    It's like saying "I have been a husband for 20 years, I know many husbands, and I have never come across a case of a husband hitting a wife".

    I've come across plenty of dodgy stuff from tenants - everything from threatening LL's, making false allegations through to false claims about serious illness
    Originally posted by dividendhero
    Let's not turn this into a "landlords are all evil" vs "tenants are all dodgy" type of debate. There is dodgy behaviour on both sides - no reasonable person can dispute that. I have come across plenty of dodgy stuff from landlords myself, but I try not to generalise. Similarly, I have never trashed a property nor missed to pay rent but I do acknowledge that that stuff happens.

    Let's try to be realistic here, please.

    EDIT: Let me add my own very personal experience. Many moons ago I rented a flat in a large development in the summer and couldn't check the heating because it was communal. When winter came, the radiators weren't working. It turned out the work required to fix them was quite substantial and the landlord was unwilling to pick up the tab. I couldn't terminate the contract within the first six months; after a LOT of fighting and threats of legal action, the landlord very reluctantly agreed to buy some electric heaters which were better than nothing but still inadequate. he made it very clear he was unwilling to fix the radiators, so I left as soon before the next winter. What recourse did I have to force him to fix the radiators? In New York I could have withheld rent, but not in England. See, you should have the intelligence to appreciate that the world is not limited to what little you may or may not have experienced yourself! Mine was a perfect example of a case in which the landlord did not want to pay for the necessary repairs. I could have easily seen that escalating into a revenge eviction had I not left myself.
    Last edited by SouthLondonUser; 15-04-2019 at 5:56 PM. Reason: clarification about personal experience
    • tom9980
    • By tom9980 15th Apr 19, 6:23 PM
    • 1,350 Posts
    • 3,961 Thanks
    tom9980
    EDIT: Let me add my own very personal experience. Many moons ago I rented a flat in a large development in the summer and couldn't check the heating because it was communal. When winter came, the radiators weren't working. It turned out the work required to fix them was quite substantial and the landlord was unwilling to pick up the tab. I couldn't terminate the contract within the first six months; after a LOT of fighting and threats of legal action, the landlord very reluctantly agreed to buy some electric heaters which were better than nothing but still inadequate. he made it very clear he was unwilling to fix the radiators, so I left as soon before the next winter. What recourse did I have to force him to fix the radiators? In New York I could have withheld rent, but not in England. See, you should have the intelligence to appreciate that the world is not limited to what little you may or may not have experienced yourself! Mine was a perfect example of a case in which the landlord did not want to pay for the necessary repairs. I could have easily seen that escalating into a revenge eviction had I not left myself.
    Originally posted by SouthLondonUser
    There is a process https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/repairs/what_to_do_if_your_landlord_wont_do_repairs its just you and others seem to ignore it exists. This process can also protect you from revenge eviction.
    “In order to change, we must be sick and tired of being sick and tired.”
    • SouthLondonUser
    • By SouthLondonUser 15th Apr 19, 6:34 PM
    • 701 Posts
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    SouthLondonUser
    The landlord would have claimed the electric heaters provided were sufficient.
    I claimed they were not.
    I remember contacting the Citizen Advice Bureau and they said that, realistically, since the landlord had provided something, however inadequate, the chances of me proving it was inadequate and therefore forcing him to fix the radiators were very slim.
    I also remember contacting the council about it. They said they would have looked into it but it would have taken a long time since they had to prioritise people who were with no heating at all (shocking how many such tenants there are, maybe not all landlords are as good as those who post here?).

    The protection from eviction lasts only six months, and only if the council serves a specific notice to the landlord (I forget the technical name). If the council takes no action or serves a different kind of notice, no protection whatsoever.

    I don't understand: do you deny that revenge evictions are a thing? Please clarify.

    Would you be opposed to a process that allows tenants to withhold rent, like in NY, if certain repairs aren't made on time? I don't know how else to get the landlord's attention, honestly. Note that in NY "not paying" is not enough: you need to show the funds are available and they are typically left in a dedicated account for this very purpose.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 15th Apr 19, 6:45 PM
    • 13,407 Posts
    • 15,817 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Well, a system like this would prevent rent increases by 10% every year, which has been known to happen in the past in certain parts of London. Oh, cry me a river for the poor landlords who will no longer be able to increase rent by 10% a year...
    Originally posted by SouthLondonUser

    Careful what you wish for, AIUI the last time rent controls came in (late 70's) renting dried up.
    Please dont criticise my spelling. It's excellent. Its my typing that's bad.
    • SouthLondonUser
    • By SouthLondonUser 15th Apr 19, 6:48 PM
    • 701 Posts
    • 281 Thanks
    SouthLondonUser
    Careful what you wish for, AIUI the last time rent controls came in (late 70's) renting dried up.
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe
    Sigh... yet more misinformation ....

    I am not in favour of rent controls. Nor am I aware that these proposals have anything to do with rent control. If I am mistaken, please clarify.

    Capping future rent increases is different from rent control. With rent control, the initial rent is capped.

    Again, think of Scotland: if I understand correctly, Scotland limits future rent increases but not the initial rent. A landlord is still free to charge £3k a week for a two-bed flat in the middle of nowhere.
    Last edited by SouthLondonUser; 15-04-2019 at 6:58 PM. Reason: typo
    • KK14
    • By KK14 15th Apr 19, 7:00 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    KK14
    There are bad landlords & bad tenants.
    I was the victim of a section 21 a few years ago.
    I had lived in the property for a year. Kept very clean. Reported issues promptly. Passed inspections & rent paid on time.
    Got a section 21!
    I was very unhappy about that but nothing I could do. Heard on the grapevine that the property was to be sold.
    Nothing of the sort.
    Day after my moving out day, property went back up to let with a £25 increase a month which I would have paid.
    That is what the outlawing of section 21 is for!
    • tom9980
    • By tom9980 15th Apr 19, 7:20 PM
    • 1,350 Posts
    • 3,961 Thanks
    tom9980
    The landlord would have claimed the electric heaters provided were sufficient.
    I claimed they were not.
    I remember contacting the Citizen Advice Bureau and they said that, realistically, since the landlord had provided something, however inadequate, the chances of me proving it was inadequate and therefore forcing him to fix the radiators were very slim.
    I also remember contacting the council about it. They said they would have looked into it but it would have taken a long time since they had to prioritise people who were with no heating at all (shocking how many such tenants there are, maybe not all landlords are as good as those who post here?).

    The protection from eviction lasts only six months, and only if the council serves a specific notice to the landlord (I forget the technical name). If the council takes no action or serves a different kind of notice, no protection whatsoever.

    I don't understand: do you deny that revenge evictions are a thing? Please clarify.

    Would you be opposed to a process that allows tenants to withhold rent, like in NY, if certain repairs aren't made on time? I don't know how else to get the landlord's attention, honestly. Note that in NY "not paying" is not enough: you need to show the funds are available and they are typically left in a dedicated account for this very purpose.
    Originally posted by SouthLondonUser
    As a stop gap electric heaters are fine, I had to use some for 6 weeks recently in my own home.

    Of course revenge evictions exist, but i definitely believe shelter massaged their figures and ignored that a large number of these s21 evictions also had real tenant faults not disclosed because landlords were not asked.

    The NY system you describe sounds ok to me, I am not adverse as long as it is correctly administered, which is frankly doubtful if councils are involved.

    However you highlight that the council failed to help you rather than show that the law needed strengthening. This is the same problem with s8 eviction on paper it sounds good but in practice takes too long because the courts are too slow, so I and most other landlords use s21 instead wherever possible.

    Its clear as mud that what is required is not tougher laws but courts, councils and others actually doing their job. In the meantime good tenants and Landlords will suffer.
    “In order to change, we must be sick and tired of being sick and tired.”
    • chucknorris
    • By chucknorris 15th Apr 19, 8:31 PM
    • 9,952 Posts
    • 14,788 Thanks
    chucknorris
    Broadly speaking, if you make the system unfair to good landlords, you'll be left only with bad ones.
    Rachmanism happened in a rent-controlled tenant-centric rental market. There will be ways to remove tenants that only bad landlords will resort to.
    We're headed back to the era of Man About The House and Rising Damp.
    Originally posted by westernpromise
    I don't think that there is anything really unfair about this though, what specifically do you think is unfair? Furthermore I would much rather have long standing tenants, than re-letting my properties every year.
    Chuck Norris can kill two stones with one bird
    The only time Chuck Norris was wrong was when he thought he had made a mistake
    Chuck Norris puts the "laughter" in "manslaughter".
    I've started running again, after several injuries had forced me to stop
    • Mr.Generous
    • By Mr.Generous 15th Apr 19, 9:04 PM
    • 2,354 Posts
    • 3,483 Thanks
    Mr.Generous
    Of course the other change in the property letting law we have coming will have an impact too.

    No longer able to charge tenants fees for letting, costs will come down I expect, but landlords will have to pay them.

    So landlords will be evicting people who are good tenants, look after the property and pay the rent so that they can have a rent void period, pick up the utility bills, council tax and pay fees to get new tenants - for the hell of it?


    Landlords only make any money when the property is rented out. Six month rentals don't make the best return on the capital invested. You rarely get a new tenant in straight away when one leaves. You pay a tenant finding fee. You pay to bond a deposit. When you take these fees off twice a year rather than once every three years (say) it makes a big difference.


    Believe it or not most landlords are in it to make money. Most want an easy life with settled tenants. Evicting people for no reason is probably a very small percentage of cases or you are only hearing one side of the story.
    • Querty
    • By Querty 15th Apr 19, 9:09 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 13 Thanks
    Querty
    For those who are not landlords but either own their own home or aspire to one day,, here is a scenario to consider... Next door to your home and major asset you have Tenants from Hell moved in, making your life a complete misery. At the moment, if you are lucky, their landlord can use a s.21 at the end of the fixed term and you know they will go eventually. Think through how it would affect you if that were not the case... You would have to declare the problem if you wanted to sell on TA6 form and who would want to buy it unless at a hugely dropped price?

    OK, you are thinking, a S.8 could remove them, after all it is a "fault eviction". Not so easy, it is DISCRETIONARY so has to go through the full court process, and you know how the law is an !!!...the burden of proof lies with the complainants and your life will be at the mercy of the judge on the day...

    You will not think s.8 is so great then.
    • SouthLondonUser
    • By SouthLondonUser 15th Apr 19, 9:25 PM
    • 701 Posts
    • 281 Thanks
    SouthLondonUser
    At the moment, if you are lucky, their landlord can use a s.21 at the end of the fixed term and you know they will go eventually.
    Originally posted by Querty
    That's a big IF. There will also be landlords who couldn't care less as long as the tenant is paying the rent.

    What is your point? That revenge evictions do not happen? Or that they are too few for anyone to bother?
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