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  • FIRST POST
    • Modyfi
    • By Modyfi 15th Apr 19, 12:00 AM
    • 9Posts
    • 2Thanks
    Modyfi
    Parkingeye Lido Margate POPLA appeal
    • #1
    • 15th Apr 19, 12:00 AM
    Parkingeye Lido Margate POPLA appeal 15th Apr 19 at 12:00 AM
    Hi all,

    Hoping that I have done this correctly as searched the forum but none have ever been asked about this location.

    Wrote an appeal to Parkingeye for it to be declined (surprise there) and now at the POPLA stage.


    Hoping someone can give my draft a read over and correct me where I've gone wrong as its lots of information in one night!

    Back story:


    Other half registered keeper
    Neither of us are driver so never passed info as to who is
    Supposedly paid 1.20 although sure we paid 1.50.
    Price is 80p for two hours and 1.50 for four.
    Parked for 3:32
    Sent first appeal and recieved letter asking her to sign and return so I can respond on her behalf as registered
    Asked why figure shows incorrectly on their system (thought they were human) and stating the poor conditions
    Recieved response saying Insuffiient time and 14 days of reduced fine (lucky me right)
    Seems i have a letter very similar to golden ticket although differs slightly by showing a section called case law but nothing stating the keeper liability.


    Hyperlink:

    Remove space

    https:// docs.google.com/document/d/1uUdgHFit1LbfDN7LT7KdB_0Ok24IubXv5z4M0dpHB08/edit?usp=sharing
    Last edited by Modyfi; 15-04-2019 at 12:10 AM.
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 15th Apr 19, 7:49 AM
    • 38,637 Posts
    • 22,587 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #2
    • 15th Apr 19, 7:49 AM
    • #2
    • 15th Apr 19, 7:49 AM
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uUdgHFit1LbfDN7LT7KdB_0Ok24IubXv5z4M0dpHB08

    (14 Pages!)
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Apr 19, 7:58 AM
    • 23,059 Posts
    • 36,641 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 15th Apr 19, 7:58 AM
    • #3
    • 15th Apr 19, 7:58 AM
    Seems i have a letter very similar to golden ticket although differs slightly by showing a section called case law but nothing stating the keeper liability.
    Are you describing the very first letter your wife received here? Is it headed ‘Notice to Keeper’?

    What was the date of the parking incident?
    What is the ‘Date of Issue/Date Sent’ shown on the NtK.

    Does the reverse page contain a paragraph about the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, which commences 'You are notified under paragraph 9(2)(b) of Schedule 4 ..... '. And a further paragraph which commences 'You are warned that if, after 29 days from the date given ....'?

    Case Law examples are of no consequence in making a NtK compliant or not.

    Just had a quick scan of your POPLA appeal (very difficult to read on my iPad - minute font!).

    2) The amount being claimed is not a genuine pre-estimate of loss to the company or the landowner
    Get rid of this, it will cause you to lose. It holds no sway with POPLA as they will throw Beavis right back in your face, and find for the operator. Almost a red rag to a bull nowadays. Hasn’t been successful in over 3 years.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 15-04-2019 at 8:06 AM.
    Please note, we are not a legal, residential or credit advice forum, rather one that helps motorists fight private parking charges, primarily at the 'front-end' of the process.
    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day;
    show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 15th Apr 19, 9:01 AM
    • 459 Posts
    • 839 Thanks
    MistyZ
    • #4
    • 15th Apr 19, 9:01 AM
    • #4
    • 15th Apr 19, 9:01 AM
    Does any occupant of the car have evidence of paying the 1.50?

    I know this car park and it is indeed dark as a pit when the sun goes down and truly awful in many ways. I'm wondering whether you could do with some 'jump out at you' phrases, to ram these facts home in everyday English in addition to the current text .... For example: 'this car park is exceptionally poorly lit to the extent that walking in it after dark really is hazardous. Signage is hard to locate and extremely difficult to read', with reference to particular photos. Well, like that only better.

    Will be re-reading the POPLA appeal today, coffee required.
    Last edited by MistyZ; 15-04-2019 at 9:20 AM.
    • Modyfi
    • By Modyfi 15th Apr 19, 10:04 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Modyfi
    • #5
    • 15th Apr 19, 10:04 AM
    • #5
    • 15th Apr 19, 10:04 AM
    Thank you for the responses. Sorry for the poor information, was getting rather tired at the time of writing.

    The other half's car is still registered at her parents, when she popped round they gave her all her post to find two from PE.

    In my confusion looking last night I assumed they were the same date but unfortunately first was sent on the 05/03/19 and the second a reminder letter sent 14/05/19. Date of the incident in question was 23/02/19.



    Unfortunately my partner is very organised and clean so the ticket shortly went to the as was assumed there wasn't an issue.

    As you can see my letter production skill is rather lacking and seems a hatchet job.

    I Appreciate the help.
    • Modyfi
    • By Modyfi 15th Apr 19, 10:06 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Modyfi
    • #6
    • 15th Apr 19, 10:06 AM
    • #6
    • 15th Apr 19, 10:06 AM
    Also i have removed section 2 as informed.

    Should now have updated in previous hyperlink on Google cloud.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Apr 19, 10:17 AM
    • 12,651 Posts
    • 12,882 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #7
    • 15th Apr 19, 10:17 AM
    • #7
    • 15th Apr 19, 10:17 AM
    How much do they claim you owe? Is it 0.30p If so, I cannot imagine them taking this to court, a judge would be very unimpressed. Also, their signs often fall short, read this

    https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5972164

    and complain to your MP, their days are numbered,


    On 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these private parking companies. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

    Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies. .
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Modyfi
    • By Modyfi 15th Apr 19, 10:34 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Modyfi
    • #8
    • 15th Apr 19, 10:34 AM
    • #8
    • 15th Apr 19, 10:34 AM
    No, they claim that they are owed 100 now as outside of the dates required for the so called reduced fee.

    Once this is through I will follow up with local mp.

    Little concerning as to how bad of practice this seems. Having the parking signs facing into the car park and not the entrance as well as no lighting in the park or on the machine. It's almost as if they want people to trip up and make mistakes!
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Apr 19, 10:46 AM
    • 12,651 Posts
    • 12,882 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 19, 10:46 AM
    • #9
    • 15th Apr 19, 10:46 AM
    No, they claim that they are owed 100

    They are owed nothing unless a judge says so. How much was the claimed underpayment?

    Get you MP on side NOW.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Modyfi
    • By Modyfi 15th Apr 19, 10:54 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Modyfi
    Claimed underpayment was at 60.

    Is there a format of letter / email that's best to send to my local mp?
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Apr 19, 11:24 AM
    • 12,651 Posts
    • 12,882 Thanks
    The Deep
    Claimed underpayment was at 60.

    Is there a format of letter / email that's best to send to my local mp?
    Originally posted by Modyfi

    We are still not on the same page.

    How much was the original fee for parking? Was it 1.50.

    How much did you pay?
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Modyfi
    • By Modyfi 15th Apr 19, 11:26 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Modyfi
    Oh my apologies

    Fee was 80p for two hours, 1.50 for four

    We paid 1.50 but their system shows 1.20

    We were parked for 3 hours and 32 minutes
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Apr 19, 11:29 AM
    • 12,651 Posts
    • 12,882 Thanks
    The Deep
    So they are claiming that you underpaid by 0.30. Read this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_minimis
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Apr 19, 11:43 AM
    • 70,385 Posts
    • 82,950 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Remove your two photos of the signs with 'flash active and zoomed'.

    Just leave all the dark photos only in your POPLA appeal.

    You need to clearly state at the start that the driver who was not you, DID pay 1.50 which covered 4 hours parking, and the machine did not return any money.

    Put P/Eye to strict proof that the machine was not 30p up after that period.

    Next to your photo of the PDT machine, put a note that points out to POPLA that there is no sign next to it with 100 on it, so the driver could not have known about that fee, albeit they saw from the machine screen what the actual tariffs were (not from signage). State that the PDT machine screen DOES NOT mention 100 at all.

    Include a signed & dated witness statement from any second person in the car (you/your wife as passenger?) that confirms they 'saw the driver put in 1.50 and know this as they helped to find the right coins and were an eye witness'.

    Can you find by Googling, any newspaper articles about the same car park where people are talking about the same issue, having paid the right coins but receiving a penalty anyway? If so, include that too in the POPLA appeal document an not just as a link, as a screenshot of the entire article(s).

    IMHO you might lose this at POPLA (unless POPLA find for you on the dark signage issue) but it's worth defending if P/Eye take it further, as it's your word against theirs about the 30p, and at court it would be their case to prove on the balance of probabilities.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Apr 19, 11:57 AM
    • 12,651 Posts
    • 12,882 Thanks
    The Deep

    IMHO you might lose this at POPLA (unless POPLA find for you on the dark signage issue)


    I would very much hope not. This would mean that they are accepting the word of a well known scammer over a fine upstanding citizen.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 15th Apr 19, 1:02 PM
    • 741 Posts
    • 1,922 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    Other than dark / unclear signage, there could be a couple of other reasons for POPLA to find in your favour.
    • Non-compliance with Paragraph 9 (2) (a) of Schedule 4 of POFA (i.e. failure to specify the relevant land upon which the vehicle was parked); check ParkingEye's Notice to Keeper - does it simply refer to "Lido (1)" or "Lido (2)" without even stating the town or postcode for the car park?
    • Landholder authority; as recently as 4 months ago ParkingEye's evidence packs for this site contained a witness statement on behalf of the landowner Stour Side Investments Limited which dated back to June 2016. The director named on this document is recorded with Companies House as having resigned in October 2016. If ParkingEye are still relying upon this document, you will have a strong argument that it provides no reliable evidence that ParkingEye still had the landowner's authority over two and a half years later.
    • Le_Kirk
    • By Le_Kirk 15th Apr 19, 4:09 PM
    • 4,616 Posts
    • 3,990 Thanks
    Le_Kirk
    In my confusion looking last night I assumed they were the same date but unfortunately first was sent on the 05/03/19 and the second a reminder letter sent 14/05/19. Date of the incident in question was 23/02/19.
    Unless you are a Time Lord, this is not possible! Did you mean 14/03/19?
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 15th Apr 19, 5:12 PM
    • 741 Posts
    • 1,922 Thanks
    Edna Basher
    14/3/19 would make sense - ParkingEye issue their reminder notice 9 days after issuing the PCN.
    • MistyZ
    • By MistyZ 15th Apr 19, 9:28 PM
    • 459 Posts
    • 839 Thanks
    MistyZ
    Assuming the experienced regulars agree, sounds like you should major on signage, i.e. have it as your first POPLA section. And I still think it would be a good idea to add to it with your own carefully phrased but damning description of the difficulties it presents after dark. It is not fit for purpose on dark evenings, yet that is when it is busiest due to the facilities it serves. I have parked there and struggled to see my purse, let alone the coins in it.

    Edna Basher's comments on the landowner authority are really interesting. With luck that will swing it for you, if the POPLA assessor doesn't understand that people should not be invited to agree to written contracts / feed coins into a machine in virtual pitch darkness.
    • Modyfi
    • By Modyfi 16th Apr 19, 12:41 AM
    • 9 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Modyfi
    Sorry for the delay , was a rather busy day !

    - Two flash photos removed, only dark photos attached
    - start statement changed to correct payment
    - Note to popla added next to ticket machine image
    - Added connection to witness statement in first argument yet to write it ( on my to do list)
    - Was unable to find any information or articles regarding anyone with similar issues
    - Added non compliance with stated location into section for paragraph 2

    Hopefully hyperlink is stilll active and showing currently updated document

    A couple of questions if i may:
    - Is it worth me adding this into my document and if so how best to add it ?
    Landholder authority; as recently as 4 months ago ParkingEye's evidence packs for this site contained a witness statement on behalf of the landowner Stour Side Investments Limited which dated back to June 2016. The director named on this document is recorded with Companies House as having resigned in October 2016. If ParkingEye are still relying upon this document, you will have a strong argument that it provides no reliable evidence that ParkingEye still had the landowner's authority over two and a half years later.
    - Given my error for mistaking the dates and thinking the reminder was a golden ticket, do i need to remove the part of non compliance of pofa in regards to keeper liability?
    - I have two other images. One showing poor state of flooring in car park (pothole city) and another showing that tickets only produce a purchase time and not an expiry time. Would these be of any use ?
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