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  • FIRST POST
    • Purple_Orchid
    • By Purple_Orchid 14th Apr 19, 12:46 AM
    • 9Posts
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    Purple_Orchid
    UKPC PCN issued at night - Blue Badge holder
    • #1
    • 14th Apr 19, 12:46 AM
    UKPC PCN issued at night - Blue Badge holder 14th Apr 19 at 12:46 AM
    Hello,

    I would really appreciate if somebody could read through my draft appeal to UKPC and let me know if anything can be improved.
    I have been reading this forum for a few days and have now followed the advice and started with the ‘newbie’ page and the template. I need to send this within the next few days.
    However, as a blue badge holder, I’m unsure how much I need to say and whether to include term driver or keeper? If I’m attaching a copy of my blue badge, am I right in thinking that it doesn’t matter in this case?

    I’ve already tried to speak to the gym manager where the PCN was issued, in order to cancel it, but had no luck. Will try again to find out who is the landowner and complain to them too.

    I would be grateful for any advice.
    Thank you.

    Unfortunately, as a total newbie to the forum, I’m unable to include links to my photos. Is there any other way to upload photos, without using links?

    This is my draft appeal:

    Re PCN number:

    I dispute your 'parking charge', as the keeper of the vehicle. I deny any liability or contractual agreement and I will be making a formal complaint about your predatory conduct to your client landowner and to my MP.

    Since your PCN is a vague template, I require ALL photos taken and an explanation of the allegation and your evidence, i.e.:

    The PCN states that the car was observed at 23:… and the ticket was issued at 23:.. (same as observed time), so there was no grace period.

    - If the allegation involves an alleged overstay of minutes, your evidence must include the actual grace period agreed by the landowner. If you fail to evidence the actual grace period that applies at this site or suggest that only one period applies, this will be disregarded as an attempt to mislead. In the absence of evidence, it will be reasonably taken to be a minimum of twenty minutes (ten on arrival and ten after parking time) in accordance with the official BPA article by Kelvin Reynolds about 'observation periods' on arrival being additional and separate to a 'grace period' at the end.

    - in all cases, you must include a close up actual photograph of the sign you contend was at the location on the material date.


    The signs in the car park in question displaying terms & conditions are inadequately positioned and not lit at night (even though each sign actually has a light above it, but there were all switched off, as well as all the lights outside & inside the gym). The signs are not clear or legible from any of the parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself on the entrance sign.
    There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion.
    Where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established.
    Therefore, there can be no acceptance of an agreement if the other person is without knowledge of the offer.

    It is apparent that the initial entrance sign in the car park is misleading and it does not list terms & conditions - it only states that Gym’s opening hours are 06:00 to 22:00 hours and that if offers free 2 hours parking to gym members only (Photo 1 attached).
    Photo 1 – the car park entrance sign


    The car park does not have any pay & display machines. There is nothing about the extortionate charge of 100 (reduced to 60 if paid within 14 days) out of these hours, written on the entrance sign. It just says terms & conditions are displayed in the car park. Why not on the same low height entrance sign, so that everybody can clearly see it and be able to read it? However, at 11pm at night, there were no lights in the car park whatsoever and it’s physically impossible to read these notices high up on the poles (about 9-10 foot from the ground), with their small print lettering and in total darkness (Photos 2, 3 & 4 attached).
    Photo 2 – the car park at night – in total darkness
    Photo 3 – the car park at night with camera flash
    Photo 4 – height comparison between the parking sign & a 6’ man

    Why is something so important so small and illegible?

    Parking so late at night in the dark car park, the driver could not see any parking bays marked disabled, so did not clearly display the blue badge. However, he driver was parking for up to 15-20 minutes to pick somebody up from the pub next door and the car park being in total darkness and your entrance notice of 06:00 to 22:00 gym opening hours was misleading, thus implying that it’s free to park at night, after 22:00 hours (it was impossible to read any signs displaying terms & conditions, as explained already).
    One would need a stepladder to be able to get close enough to the sign with terms & conditions and a torch in order to be able to read it. As a result, the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any of the terms and conditions involving this charge.

    Therefore, this would be even harder to read and totally inaccessible for a disabled person with a mobility problem (who could not climb on anything to try & get closer to a sign high up on the post). These signs should be readable from a sitting position in the car.

    If this PCN is not cancelled, UKPC would be breaching the EA2010, as people with disability have protected characteristics under the Act.

    In order to resolve the dispute, I attach copy of the blue badge (Photo 5 will be attached).

    As you now have evidence of the keeper’s disability, you should cancel the charge or issue a POPLA code.

    Formal note:
    Should you later pursue this charge by way of litigation, note that service of any legal documents by email is expressly disallowed and you are not entitled to assume that the data in this dispute/appeal remains the current address for service in the future.

    Yours faithfully,
    XXXXX
    Last edited by Purple_Orchid; 16-04-2019 at 9:16 PM. Reason: Too many details
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Apr 19, 12:48 AM
    • 72,324 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 14th Apr 19, 12:48 AM
    • #2
    • 14th Apr 19, 12:48 AM
    I’m unable to include links to my photos. Is there any other way to upload photos, without using links?
    Do what all the other newbies do. Break the link.

    If this is a windscreen PCN, wait till day 26 and then use the template appeal from the NEWBIES thread, not that one. You can show the BB of 'an occupant of the car' but categorically no saying who was driving. Ignore UKPC when they email to ask.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 14th Apr 19, 9:03 AM
    • 13,115 Posts
    • 13,447 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 14th Apr 19, 9:03 AM
    • #3
    • 14th Apr 19, 9:03 AM
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11858473/Parking-firm-UKPC-admits-faking-tickets-to-fine-drivers.htmlUKPC are scammers, read this

    Complain to your MP, they are drawing up a new regulations to control these scammers.

    On 15th March 2019 a Bill was enacted to curb the excesses of these private parking companies. Codes of Practice are being drawn up, an independent appeals service will be set up, and access to the DVLA's date base more rigorously policed, and persistent offenders denied access. Hopefully life will become impossible for the worst of these scammers.

    Until this is done you should still complain to your MP, citing the new legislation.

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2019/8/contents/enacted

    Just as the clampers were finally closed down, so hopefully will many of these Private Parking Companies.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Purple_Orchid
    • By Purple_Orchid 14th Apr 19, 12:42 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Purple_Orchid
    • #4
    • 14th Apr 19, 12:42 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Apr 19, 12:42 PM
    Thank you Coupon-Mad on your quick response. Much appreciated!

    Yes, this was a windscreen PCN, issued about 3 weeks ago, so intend to send the appeal by day 26.
    I'll follow your advice and send the short template version, but add that the car occupant has a BB with a line on breaching the EA2010. Shall I then also include the photos to show how it's impossible to read any of their terms & conditions signs in the darkness?

    Found a thread where the poster advised to remove https// from the links, so hope this works:

    [IMG]/i.postimg.cc/ZKzNc367/April-2019-car-park-at-night.jpg[/IMG]
    [IMG]i.postimg.cc/vZQVRsq5/April-2019-car-park-at-night-with-camera-flash.jpg[/IMG]
    [IMG]i.postimg.cc/bv5D22zR/April-2019-car-park-sign-height-and-6-foot-man-comparison.jpg[/IMG]
    [IMG]i.postimg.cc/x1rdJssx/Car-park-entrance-sign-with-opening-hours.jpg[/IMG]
    • Purple_Orchid
    • By Purple_Orchid 14th Apr 19, 12:49 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Purple_Orchid
    • #5
    • 14th Apr 19, 12:49 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Apr 19, 12:49 PM
    Thank you Deep, that's a good advice.
    I have found the information about the new Bill & watched the debate on this in the Parliament.
    Saw that BPA have added this news about what happened on 15th March and that these changes about the set standards & rules on clear signage, lighting etc. are expected to become law by this summer.
    I'm I right in thinking that this doesn't change anything for the people already issued by PCNs at the moment? Would the new Bill have any impact on POPLA decisions already?

    I'm intending to write to my MP and mention all this though.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Apr 19, 2:20 PM
    • 72,324 Posts
    • 84,631 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 14th Apr 19, 2:20 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Apr 19, 2:20 PM
    but add that the car occupant
    Add that 'the appellant is the keeper and was AN occupant of the car' (NOT 'THE' only occupant!).

    Car park at night (good photos!):

    https://postimg.cc/JtKt7s6Z

    At night with flash, still no signs:

    https://postimg.cc/crbHYVNJ

    Unreadably high sign:

    https://postimg.cc/FfjsMzkf

    Store opening hours:

    https://postimg.cc/N54tZxvm

    What about using UKPC's own photos of the blurry sign? I always use them at POPLA stage. Go and log in and 'view photos' they are usually laughable and very useful.

    Do this too:
    I’ve already tried to speak to the gym manager where the PCN was issued, in order to cancel it, but had no luck. Will try again to find out who is the landowner and complain to them too.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 14-04-2019 at 2:26 PM.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Purple_Orchid
    • By Purple_Orchid 14th Apr 19, 9:11 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Purple_Orchid
    • #7
    • 14th Apr 19, 9:11 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Apr 19, 9:11 PM
    Thank you so much Coupon-mad, that's a very good point!

    And thank you for looking at my photos and creating usable links. I looked at their own image of the sign and you were right - it's unreadable!

    [IMG]postimg.cc/TyYQV0gf[/IMG]

    I'll let everybody now how I get on with this appeal.

    Thanks again!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Apr 19, 9:22 PM
    • 72,324 Posts
    • 84,631 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 14th Apr 19, 9:22 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Apr 19, 9:22 PM
    https://i.postimg.cc/43pMTF37/Parking-sign-photo-taken-by-parking-warden.jpg
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Purple_Orchid
    • By Purple_Orchid 14th Apr 19, 10:51 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Purple_Orchid
    • #9
    • 14th Apr 19, 10:51 PM
    • #9
    • 14th Apr 19, 10:51 PM
    Thanks again Coupon-mad! Much appreciated.
    • Purple_Orchid
    • By Purple_Orchid 16th May 19, 8:10 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Purple_Orchid
    Hi all,
    I need a further advice please.

    I've appealed my PCN by using the 'newbie thread' form on day 26.
    I never said who was the driver, only the keeper - as per advice on this forum. I also attached a copy of the keeper's blue badge.

    Yesterday afternoon I've received an email from UKPC and day 56 is today.

    They are asking for the driver's name and have given me 7 days to respond. They said the appeal is on hold.
    What should I do? Should I ignore their letter?
    I would appreciate any advice. Thank you.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th May 19, 8:39 PM
    • 72,324 Posts
    • 84,631 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    1. Laugh at them.

    2. Search the forum for UKPC letter driver and read all the other threads...
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Purple_Orchid
    • By Purple_Orchid 16th May 19, 9:20 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Purple_Orchid
    Thank you so much Coupon-mad for responding so quickly!
    I've read a few threads and will follow the advice - I'll ignore the letter and sit tight.

    Today is day 56 since the PCN was issued and I haven't received the NTK letter. Is this significant or have they now extended this deadline by sending me their 'fishing' email yesterday?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th May 19, 9:23 PM
    • 22,461 Posts
    • 28,483 Thanks
    Redx
    POFA is quite specific on timescales and wording for an NTK, its written in stone, so not flexible at all


    an email is not an NTK
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Purple_Orchid
    • By Purple_Orchid 16th May 19, 10:04 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Purple_Orchid
    Thanks Redx,
    I understand that, just wanted to know whether they've already missed sending the NTK on time, as 56 days is today & apart from that email. I've received nothing else.

    Thank you for clarifying, it's good to know.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th May 19, 10:17 PM
    • 22,461 Posts
    • 28,483 Thanks
    Redx
    yes they missed the 56 day deadline to get a postal NTK to the keeper , if today is day 56

    tomorrow would be too late , as would any day after that , meaning the KEEPER can argue POFA and they have a weak argument because they have had 6.5 years to grapple with POFA and get it right each and every time, so better for the KEEPER as long as no driver is identified , their incompetence will damn them , lol

    by phishing for the driver they failed to play the long game with the keeper and failed the law that allows them to make a keeper responsible for the actions of a driver

    meaning they have an uphill struggle from now on in getting any money out of a KEEPER

    the DRIVER remains liable , hence keeping stum about their identity
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th May 19, 12:10 AM
    • 72,324 Posts
    • 84,631 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yep, you win, hence ''laugh at them'' (to yourself).

    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT UNLESS IN SCOTLAND OR NI
    TWO Clicks needed Look up, top of the page:
    Main site>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
    • Purple_Orchid
    • By Purple_Orchid 17th May 19, 12:59 PM
    • 9 Posts
    • 6 Thanks
    Purple_Orchid
    Thank you guys for your advice & support! Much appreciated.
    I'll see now what happens & I'll post any updates here.
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