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  • FIRST POST
    • gettingready
    • By gettingready 10th Apr 19, 7:29 PM
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    gettingready
    Civil Service - changing department permanently not "on loan"
    • #1
    • 10th Apr 19, 7:29 PM
    Civil Service - changing department permanently not "on loan" 10th Apr 19 at 7:29 PM
    Question to Civil Servants Only

    I am a Civil Servant and applied for a externally advertised job with a different department, higher grade, got the job but then the paperwork was processed as "loan" so my "home department" stayed the same.

    I am looking to change a job again and wonder how on earth can I break all ties with my "home department" for good when most jobs advertised externally are described as permanent for external applicants but loans for current civil servants?

    It really feels like the "home department" holds people down from moving on with their lives.

    I want no connection with them (very bad experience), have absolutely no plans to ever go back there but any job offers are done as loan again and again due to me currently being a civil servant. I do not want another loan, I want to change "home" department all together but it seems impossible.

    Anyone with Civil Service HR background can advice? Our HR is pretty much non existent.
Page 2
    • gettingready
    • By gettingready 13th Apr 19, 7:40 AM
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    gettingready
    I give up trying to explain why that "system" is simply wrong as clearly most people posting here are unable to understand what is wrong with that.

    Amazing.

    Have a great weekend everyone.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 13th Apr 19, 10:21 AM
    • 6,275 Posts
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    TELLIT01
    I don't disagree that the system wrong, it's also inconsistent. As I mentioned in an earlier post, one guy I worked with was told he had to resign from his current job in order to take a new job in a different area of the Civil Service.
    He would not have lost any 'seniority' but it might have affected continuous service. In his case the whole thing was a massive mess up (polite version) as after he handed in his notice he was told by the new department that his start date with them had been delayed by a couple of months, but no new start date given. Luckily for him he was allowed to withdraw his notice, only for the new lot to come back to him about 6 weeks later telling him he needed to start with them in 2 weeks in order to attend training courses which had been arranged.

    HR, brewery, booze up (polite version again) and, couldn't arrange, spring to mind.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 13th Apr 19, 3:02 PM
    • 11,758 Posts
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    lincroft1710
    I give up trying to explain why that "system" is simply wrong as clearly most people posting here are unable to understand what is wrong with that.
    Originally posted by gettingready
    In your eyes it is wrong and most of us can see why you hold that belief. But if the system is to change, then several things would have to happen, e.g.

    1. It is found to be unworkable by the CS

    2. Too many good people leave in frustration.

    3. There is a concerted opposition, preferably by or backed by unions.

    4. It is found to contravene current employment law (certainly doesn't appear to at the moment).

    You can criticise the system, you can criticise people on here, but in effect by accepting a promotion/regrading/redeployment or whatever, you are accepting the system and thus the CS has no reason to change. Yes I recognise you are in a Catch 22 situation.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 13th Apr 19, 8:01 PM
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    dori2o
    I don't disagree that the system wrong, it's also inconsistent. As I mentioned in an earlier post, one guy I worked with was told he had to resign from his current job in order to take a new job in a different area of the Civil Service.
    He would not have lost any 'seniority' but it might have affected continuous service. In his case the whole thing was a massive mess up (polite version) as after he handed in his notice he was told by the new department that his start date with them had been delayed by a couple of months, but no new start date given. Luckily for him he was allowed to withdraw his notice, only for the new lot to come back to him about 6 weeks later telling him he needed to start with them in 2 weeks in order to attend training courses which had been arranged.

    HR, brewery, booze up (polite version again) and, couldn't arrange, spring to mind.
    Originally posted by TELLIT01
    It wouldn't have affected continuous service/pension rights so long as they took up duty within 12 months of resigning the previous position.

    However, I think there is something very wrong with this particular incident.

    My current position within the CS involves working directly with new recruits into a certain Business Unit within a certain Department.

    Jobs in the CS are identified in 3 ways.

    Internally - applications only accepted from staff within the same Department

    Across the Civil Service - Applications accepted from anyone currently employed within the CS

    Externally - Applications accepted from anyone.


    Background**

    Deprtments have the ability to restrict the ability of staff to leave the their current role for another within the same department only where they would be moving on a level transfer basis.

    This means moving to the same grade.

    This applies regardless of how the job was advertised.

    Where the role would see that individual move grades/be promoted, then the departments are unable to block that transfer.

    Even though the job was advertised as an External vacancy, they treat all existing employees of the same department as Internal transfers. It's much easier for al concerned to do this. It means you do not have to resign the various declarations. Your Employee number doesn't have to be changed, and in many circumstances your contract doesn't have to change depending on how long you have been in that department.

    Even then you would simply be issued a notification of change to T&C's rather than sign a new contract.

    Those who move from another Gov Department would need to sign a new contract, but I personally have never seen or heard any circumstance where a permanent job has been advertised and applied for in another Gov Dept and the individual has moved on secondment.

    If it does happen then it certainly is not the norm.

    As someone else has stated, IF this role was advertised on a Fixed Term Agreement, then they treat internal CS staff as being on secondment, so that unlike those external applicants, you would simply go back to your original post at the end of the FTA, and not leave the CS entirely.



    The whole recruitment system within the Civil Service is a pain to navigate for people dealing with new staff. There are several different departments dealing with certain aspects of the recruitment, not just one office.

    It's entirely possible that this is nothing more than an error with paperwork, where someone has ticked the wrong box on the transfer document from the Other Gov Department.

    First of all, have you spoken to anyone to discuss the matter?

    If not, then you need to do so.


    If you have spoken to them and the previous department is insistent that you are only on secondment, then you need to speak to the Union.

    I see you've already said that you fight your own battles but in these circumstances they have access to far more resources, case law, legislation details etc than you do in order to help resolve this issue, and they would deal with it quicker as well.

    Even if you are not currently a member that should not be an issue. Most Reps I know personally will still assist with existing issues that began prior to becoming a member, but you will have to become a member to get their help.

    You may also wish to make a formal complaint to the Civil Service Chief Peoples Officer, who is the head of all CS HR Functions.

    Write to them and include a copy of the original job advert which will still be available to you on the Civil Service jobs website.

    Be polite, put forward your argument, don't include anything about being a slave or just a number that nobody cares about etc as it doesn't help or contribute to the complaint.

    Also include a copy of any other paperwork you have been provided to highlight the issue, i.e. the document which states that this is a Secondment only.

    You can write this complaint in addition to having the Union assistance. In fact the Union could very well advise you to do this anyway.

    Hopefully this will be resolved pretty quickly.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 14th Apr 19, 8:53 AM
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    TELLIT01
    My experience of CS HR means I am not in the least surprised if they have got things totally wrong. In addition to the instance detailed previously in this thread, I was given a start date for a period I had informed them I would be out of the country on holiday, and when I did arrive on the supposedly rearranged date, nobody at that office new I was coming.
    A colleague from the same intake as myself got a phone call demanding to know why she hadn't turned up for her first day. The answer was a very simple one - she had received a letter telling her the application had been unsuccessful.
    Much later on in my time with DWP, there was an intake of 'apprentices' who were to be trained as claims processors. The first job they were given was basic filing i.e. put claim documents into filing cabinets in strict alphabetical order. Within a few days we were having major problems finding any new claim when there was a query. The reason soon became apparent, at least half of that intake of about a dozen couldn't read or write property. They each had to be given a laminated sheet with the letters of the alphabet on it. If something as basic as that gets past HR there really is little hope.
    • 50Twuncle
    • By 50Twuncle 14th Apr 19, 3:15 PM
    • 9,133 Posts
    • 2,316 Thanks
    50Twuncle
    Question to Civil Servants Only

    I am a Civil Servant and applied for a externally advertised job with a different department, higher grade, got the job but then the paperwork was processed as "loan" so my "home department" stayed the same.

    I am looking to change a job again and wonder how on earth can I break all ties with my "home department" for good when most jobs advertised externally are described as permanent for external applicants but loans for current civil servants?

    It really feels like the "home department" holds people down from moving on with their lives.

    I want no connection with them (very bad experience), have absolutely no plans to ever go back there but any job offers are done as loan again and again due to me currently being a civil servant. I do not want another loan, I want to change "home" department all together but it seems impossible.

    Anyone with Civil Service HR background can advice? Our HR is pretty much non existent.
    Originally posted by gettingready

    By Department change - do you mean (eg) DWP to MOD or do you mean Departments within a "ministry" ?
    • gettingready
    • By gettingready 16th Apr 19, 9:44 PM
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    • 16,321 Thanks
    gettingready
    Dori2o - thanks for your excellent and on topic post. You clearly know exactly what this is about, thanks.

    I am happy where I am now. Planning next move on;y because of wanting higher grade/salary as I have done much higher level jobs before and this is where I am heading. Had to stat a bit lover because of change of sector but that is fine. I jumped 2 grades within a year so far and will keep on going up.

    I do not want to make any complaints, I do not need Union etc etc though. As I said, each time i move - I move up a grade and also to a completely Dep (not within same company, completely different as say from Dep of X to Dep of Y)and avoid all that nonsense BUT a lot of people i know are really absolutely stuck. Not being able to get a higher level job they really have no way out when/if unhappy in current job. They would be happy with same grade/pay job anywhere else but because of the "same level" issue - any moves they try to make are forever literally blocked.

    Thanks again for posting
    Last edited by gettingready; 16-04-2019 at 9:46 PM.
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